Can God Be Tempted By The Devil? Options

[Bloc]

It is no mystery that Christians consider Jesus and God to be the same divine being. There is also no question that Muslims hold a contrary view. A number of items make it very difficult for Muslims to understand this Christian perspective, and I'll outline one of them here:

The New Testament claims that Jesus Christ was tempted by the Devil throughout his ministry. In the Bible you will find: "...but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are -- yet was without sin." (Heb 4:15) The Bible also says: "Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted." (Heb 2:18) There is one very detailed account given in Matt.4: 1-11:

Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. And after He had fasted forty days and forty nights, He then became hungry. And the tempter came and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread." But He answered and said, "It is written, 'Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.'" Then the devil took Him into the holy city; and he had Him stand on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God throw Yourself down; for it is written, 'He will give His angels charge concerning You'; and 'On their hands they will bear You up, Lest You strike Your foot against a stone.'" Jesus said to him, "On the other hand, it is written, 'You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.'" Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world, and their glory; and he said to Him, "All these things will I give You, if You fall down and worship me." Then Jesus said to him, "Begone, Satan! For it is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only.'" Then the devil left Him; and behold, angels came and began to minister to Him.

So, if Jesus is indeed God, how can it be that the Devil attempts to entice Jesus into submitting to him? Can God be tempted by his own creation?

It seems (to me) far more likely that the above narrative describes a man, who while chosen to serve God, can hardly be considered God Himself.

This is one of the many examples within the New Testament that encourage me to doubt the divinity ascribed to Jesus.

What are your thoughts, everyone?

[MagnaCarta]

It is no mystery that Christians consider Jesus and God to be the same divine being. There is also no question that Muslims hold a contrary view. A number of items make it very difficult for Muslims to understand this Christian perspective, and I'll outline one of them here:

The New Testament claims that Jesus Christ was tempted by the Devil throughout his ministry. In the Bible you will find: "...but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are -- yet was without sin." (Heb 4:15) The Bible also says: "Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted." (Heb 2:18) There is one very detailed account given in Matt.4: 1-11:

Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. And after He had fasted forty days and forty nights, He then became hungry. And the tempter came and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread." But He answered and said, "It is written, 'Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.'" Then the devil took Him into the holy city; and he had Him stand on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God throw Yourself down; for it is written, 'He will give His angels charge concerning You'; and 'On their hands they will bear You up, Lest You strike Your foot against a stone.'" Jesus said to him, "On the other hand, it is written, 'You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.'" Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world, and their glory; and he said to Him, "All these things will I give You, if You fall down and worship me." Then Jesus said to him, "Begone, Satan! For it is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only.'" Then the devil left Him; and behold, angels came and began to minister to Him.

So, if Jesus is indeed God, how can it be that the Devil attempts to entice Jesus into submitting to him? Can God be tempted by his own creation?

It seems (to me) far more likely that the above narrative describes a man, who while chosen to serve God, can hardly be considered God Himself.

This is one of the many examples within the New Testament that encourage me to doubt the divinity ascribed to Jesus.

What are your thoughts, everyone?

To begin with I feel I need to point to a statement that is not true.

That Jesus was tempted throughout his ministry by Satan. This is not written.

The only time Jesus was tempted was before he started his public ministry, when he was in the wilderness. (Consider the significance of the wilderness in comparison to the garden where Adam was first tempted...)

This was part of the annointing process he went through being a human in the flesh, with the one thing that brought humanity to its fall from God's Grace with Adam, the human will or ego following after another way that is not GODS WILL. That Adam was tempted by Satan and did follow what Satan beguiled him into believing could even be interpreted as a symbol for the enticements of the human ego to do what IT wants instead of what God has willed for him. So we see Jesus, being tempted by the same 'Satan' when he is alone in the desert. Satan offers him THE WORLD of men, great political power over others, what most human egos would desire were they not able to do only the Will of God instead. Of course Jesus did NOT succumb to this and this is proof that he was not driven by human ego and did not do any works of Satan in his life, but did ONLY what GOD WILLED and not what the flesh might beguile him into doing. This is very important because Jesus came to BE GODS WORD in the flesh, that we would NOT be led astray by the Satan within us. This is why he would later say to Phillip when he asked Jesus to show him the Father: If you have seen me, you have seen the Father. What we would need to know of the Father's will, with regard to how WE might follow ONLY this and NOT the 'snake' within us, was perfectly delivered in the human person of Jesus. Before this, we were still lost to knowing the perfect Will of God, because we had always turned to human prophets who were not one hundred percent above the temptation of their own flesh, and their understandings were basically flawed by the nature of the human will which can led men to go against God in the flesh.

Now, we do not believe that Jesus was ALL of GOD, any more than everthing we can see, touch or feel is ALL OF GODS CREATION. There is so much more. We do not look to Jesus to know all of God, but to know GODS WILL for humanity on earth. If we looked to Jesus to reveal ALL of GOD, it would be endless and would not be contained in a finite vessel. But he was ONLY GOD in his flesh with regard to what he did, spoke, and revealed to humanity. No human will at all, this is what is important and this is what makes him DIVINE. No other human on earth was this in BEING, not before and most important to Islam, not AFTER.

I like to use the example of the teacup which a Muslim used once to attempt to discredit the claim that 'Jesus is God'...

He had said God is the ocean and Jesus is the teacup. Can the whole ocean fit in the teacup? No! So this is proof that Jesus could not be God.

Well, this is true. But...and this is what seems so hard to grasp for Muslims IMO...

Jesus was the vessel, the teacup, indeed. I agree. We are all like this teacup also. Jesus though, was filled ONLY with GOD and nothing else, in the flesh. You and I and every other 'prophet' on earth is filled with God AND Human sin or corruption, which is our human will/ego.

We do not worship the vessel, the flesh, that God provided to reveal HIS TRUTH in. But we recognize that by virtue of Jesus having ONLY God within him to act from, we can SEE GOD's WILL for us in the context of the human vessel we all live in, the flesh.

If we look to any other human, even if they are a prophet, for 'Gods Will', but they are NOT pure, we are going to see a mixture of God's will with Human will and then when we call it ALL holy without distinction, we are lost in following ONLY GODS WILL.

So, Jesus was sent to BE GODS WORD, not to just 'deliver' it with his mouth, as other prophets had done. He was sanctified to be HOLY in his sinlessness, so that when we look to Him we can believe that we are receiving GODS PURE TRUTH and not God mixed with human confusion, ego, desires, or submissions to the great temptations that Satan offered, most notably power to have temporal riches and dominion over other humans in the world of men.

This is why Jesus did not respond like other prophets to the threats brought to him by humans. He did not do what a "normal" human would do, fighting back, demanding to be respected as a man of God in authority, slaying people to secure this human respect in terror, using the idea of God's power to justifiy violence between men, he was bringing a radical new teaching to humanity by NOT responding as humans STILL justify they can 'for God'. In fact, because he did not respond in ways most humans are willing to accept, he was seen as 'weak'. Even Muslims say that Muhammad was a more 'perfect' example because he engaged in things in the 'world' when Jesus didn't. But I say that Muhammad's ego was being tempted to this worldly glory and unlike Jesus, he did not have the divine ability to resist. So we have teachings that go against the WORD of God revealed in Jesus, and to me this is proof that Muhammad was not able to discern between Gods will and his human desires brought on by ego.

But lets return back to the question...why was Jesus tempted? Because he is the redeemer of our sin, which is defined at the beginning in Adam, that being disobedience to the WORD OF GOD, and following after a lesser 'word' of the deceiver, Satan, who is adept at stroking our human ego. Just recalling what Satan used to try to 'lure' Adam and Jesus to disobey God points to how Satan knows the weakness in humanity lies in their ego. We would never be able to return to 'the Garden' or Gods Grace if we were STILL following what the ego had created. It required a perfect human who would be tempted just as Adam was, but who did not succumb, to restore humanity back to obedience. It would require this human to give the PERFECT WORD of GOD to humanity so that they would be able to CHOOSE it on their own, to master their own 'temptations' to follow ego. Now that we have GOD without human will corrupting our understanding of HIS WILL, through the life of Jesus, we can make our own 'way' back to God through Jesus offering. We now have the revealed truth of God's will...like Adam did in the garden, straight from the source so to speak. So we are no longer condemned by Adam's weakness, or choice, we are given the power to choose for ourselves GODS WILL, since it was delivered in Perfection through Jesus.

We are still surrounded by the 'serpent' of our own ego and the ego's of the world and other 'teachings' which can quite effectively cause us to remain in disobedience and sin with God, simply by rejecting what Jesus revealed and following after any other, we are following the serpent on earth.

Jesus "is" God in that he is ONLY GOD in spirit, soul, heart, mind, action, word and deed, in the time he was living in the flesh. If you look to him you do not see that which led even Adam astray being acted upon, HUMAN EGO. You see ONLY GOD.

This beautiful truth is distorted and discounted by a leap of logic that says he is ALL of GOD when he was in the Flesh.

There is quite a difference between these two words..."Only" and "All"

[Bloc]

That Jesus was tempted throughout his ministry by Satan. This is not written.

The only time Jesus was tempted was before he started his public ministry, when he was in the wilderness. (Consider the significance of the wilderness in comparison to the garden where Adam was first tempted...)

Thanks for the clarification and post. I read the "throughout his ministry" part on a Christian website on the topic and assumed this was just a common understanding among Christians. If that's not the case, then I certainly appreciate the correction!

[MagnaCarta]

Thanks for the clarification and post. I read the "throughout his ministry" part on a Christian website on the topic and assumed this was just a common understanding among Christians. If that's not the case, then I certainly appreciate the correction!

Happy to help. This particular website might very well have been attempting to discuss the challenges that Jesus dealt with in the flesh in an attempt to teach that it is incumbant upon us to strive toward overcoming our human will or the temptations we receive, as he did this throughout his ministry to keep the Will of the Father more fully. That we see Jesus asking God to take this cup from him, an expression in that moment of his 'human will', is evidence that his humanity remained fully intact throughout his life, but we also know immediately after he asked for this he released it back to God so that only God's will would be done. So you could say in theory that he was dealing with the human desire and will (to avoid pain and suffering in the flesh) right up to the end, but I would not make the leap to say he was tempted by 'Satan' all the time, as they are two very different things. I think that the 'Satan' element of our human will is when the ego is offered what appears to be 'great power' but not for Gods' purpose, and this is different than when we are dealing with the daily struggles with our human experience.

[Jim]

I think that the 'Satan' element of our human will is when the ego is offered what appears to be 'great power' but not for Gods' purpose, and this is different than when we are dealing with the daily struggles with our human experience.

Magna,

Can you explain this please.

Satan element of our will? Are you then implying that Satan isn't a being? He rather is a part of our duality as humans?

[MagnaCarta]

Magna,

Can you explain this please.

Satan element of our will? Are you then implying that Satan isn't a being? He rather is a part of our duality as humans?

I guess the best way to describe this is that Satan is a REAL and POWERFUL influence most aptly defined as 'temptation' which clamours for the attention of our ego to cause us to go astray in our will. This influence uses deception as its key weapon.

We do not need to have a physical entity in Satan to understand the powers of 'temptations' given to us while we abide in the flesh.

One could see Satan AS temptation itself, which is still a powerful pull on the will of humanity.

The defining of Satan's 'person' or 'identity' does not change the ultimate challenge we have in dealing with the weakness we tend to have when facing very real and powerful temptations in our personal lives.

[Jim]

Well now this is certainly true magna!

I think I can agree with all of your statement there.

We have all heard of 'Self Deception'. How much do we blame on the devil when it is actually our duality?

Also, do you believe that Jesus (pbuh) (since you would believe him to be divine) also had this duality that we have? Is this the thing you are saying 'represents' satan, so to speak?

[MagnaCarta]

Well now this is certainly true magna!

I think I can agree with all of your statement there.

We have all heard of 'Self Deception'. How much do we blame on the devil when it is actually our duality?

Also, do you believe that Jesus (pbuh) (since you would believe him to be divine) also had this duality that we have? Is this the thing you are saying 'represents' satan, so to speak?

.

I think that Jesus, as a human in the flesh had to directly and consciously address the 'temptations' that Satan presented to him in the wilderness, and it was in his absolute and full renouncing of Satan that his divinity was fully affrimed in the flesh. Once he had absolutely denounced the "temptation" challenge he was able to fufill his mission on earth.

But I truly believe that Jesus was fully cognizant and aware not only of his divine nature, but of the human 'duality' we are all living with, in a way that humans could not even comprehend when he walked the earth. This very awareness is because of his divine nature. In his divine nature he could not be deceived by that which is not divine. So his ability to stand before Satan to no avail of Satan speaks to this divinity.

That he was tempted is just par for the course once you embody as a human in the flesh, but in the end of his earthly walk he was without any corruption brought on with the temptations of the flesh, providing more evident proof of his 'divine' nature in the flesh. Only God is able to put away 'Satan' so that there is no temptation at all! No other human created could or did achieve this, so we come to the conclusion that Jesus was "God in the Flesh".

This is not the same as the all inclusive idea that Jesus IS GOD, period. God is far more than what was revealed in the Mortal existance of Jesus, but for the sake of humanity, we were given this to guide OUR actions toward one another in life in the manner that would be most pleasing to God.

When Adam was given the Word of God (as simple as it was in the beginning) to not eat of the two trees in the Garden, we are now given to know ALL that there is of God's WILL, much more than what God expects of Adam. Adam failed to obey, voila, here we are...in need of Jesus who did not fail and can deliver to us the fullness of Gods WILL for his human creation, that we may pick it up and keep it.

As we can see though, this never removed the effects of 'Satan' or worldly temptations to whisper in our ear to ignore, dispute, deny or denounce what Jesus brought to the world. Jesus, in effect, brought GOD to the world in the manner which GOD deemed necessary for humanity to know what His Will was for us, for our blessing and salvation, that we might return to that place which Adam had lost in the fall.

This post has been edited by MagnaCarta: Mar 18 2008, 11:49 AM

[Jon]

I don't think Jesus was actually tempted here. He was simply reciting the law to Satan just as Jesus recited the laws to his disciples such as 'You shall not commit adultery'. That doesn't mean Jesus committed adultery.

God Bless,

Jon

[MagnaCarta]

I don't think Jesus was actually tempted here. He was simply reciting the law to Satan just as Jesus recited the laws to his disciples such as 'You shall not commit adultery'. That doesn't mean Jesus committed adultery.

God Bless,

Jon

Here is a good link with a 'short but sweet' synopsis on the issue:

http://www.lifeofchrist.com/life/temptation/default.asp

[Jon]

Here is a good link with a 'short but sweet' synopsis on the issue:

http://www.lifeofchrist.com/life/temptation/default.asp

Thanks Magna. I believe it is a great example to us all to remain steadfast in God. It is something we can follow as human beings when we are tempted.

God Bless,

Jon

[Jim]

Here is the actual verses:

Matthew 4:1-11 - "Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungered.

And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in [their] hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him."

I don't see anything in these verses to indicate that Jesus was God. The phrase "son of God" is a topic for another thread.

I interpret (as I am sure most Chrsitian scholars would) that Jesus being led of the spirit to the wilderness means literally he was led to the wilderness, not figuratively.

Therefore, he was literally hungered, like humans are. Satan is said to have tempted him. Magna's idea can possibly fit this portion of the scripture. However, the following scripture contradicts this view. Reading on you find that Satan literally took him to the Holy City, which implies that satan was a literal being who took Jesus someplace. Then he didn't tempt Jesus he challenged him to trust in God by throwing himself down because God promised already (in the OT) to protect him. Jesus clearly and literally told satan (a being) not to tempt Gods trust. Then Satan took him to another place and literally tempted him with worldly possessions. And then the clentcher that indicates that Jesus was not God (in my view), he clearly set himself apart from ANY dvinity when he reportedly said to Satan, "for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him."

God can't be tempted. Nor can he be challenged to disobey himself since he makes up the rules. In this situation, if Jesus were God in the flesh, it would be more appropriate to have said, "thou shalt worship me and me only shall you serve! Furthermore, the angels would not need to minister to God after such an instance for God has no need of any creature, sustanance or anything.

[Bloc]

God can't be tempted. Nor can he be challenged to disobey himself since he makes up the rules. In this situation, if Jesus were God in the flesh, it would be more appropriate to have said, "thou shalt worship me and me only shall you serve! Furthermore, the angels would not need to minister to God after such an instance for God has no need of any creature, sustanance or anything.

This is also what puzzles me. If Jesus is divine and God himself, why does he, given so many opportunities to do the contrary, redirect praise and worship to God (the Father) and not to himself. It would seem that if he wanted Paul's trinitarian doctrine and understanding to be followed, he should have removed all doubt on the subject. Instead, we saw in early Christianity (and even to some extent modern times), that there are unitarian Christians that believe in the message of Jesus, but not his divinity.

[Jon]

This is also what puzzles me. If Jesus is divine and God himself, why does he, given so many opportunities to do the contrary, redirect praise and worship to God (the Father) and not to himself. It would seem that if he wanted Paul's trinitarian doctrine and understanding to be followed, he should have removed all doubt on the subject. Instead, we saw in early Christianity (and even to some extent modern times), that there are unitarian Christians that believe in the message of Jesus, but not his divinity.

Hi Bloc,
To say Paul invented the "trinity" is a bit ignorant. I know that is the polemic from Islamic apologist and it's ok but it is flat wrong. The mistake a lot of us make is being ignorant with eachother's teachings and taking it from the viewpoint of our own belief systems. We tend to interpret it to our liking. There are however basic tenents of faith that can be discussed that argue logic and mostly rely on faith. For instance I could point out that Allah spread his spirit out to the Earth and universe yet he sits beyond the clouds on a throne. Does that make him two Gods? So before we get into Paul and the trinity arguments let's try to approach eachother with compassion and a true thirst for knowledge. As far as Paul inventing the trinity Jesus himself said he and the Father are one. The trinity doctrine is throughout the Bible.

God Bless,

Jon

[NoachideJoe]

..The trinity doctrine is throughout the Bible...

Shalom,

Really..."throughout"?!? Could you provide specific examples...that is, ACTUAL examples? I am under the impression that the "trinity doctrine" is of "New Testament" origin, and is not found in the "Old Testament." And even in the "New Testament" it is found only in a couple of places, not "throughout."

Apologies if I seem confrontational...that is not my intention. Rather, I believe that misunderstandings and generalizations are dangerous to understanding others' religions. Additionally, if this is not the place for this discussion, I would be happy to continue it via email and/or Messaging.

Joe

[Jon]

Shalom,

Really..."throughout"?!? Could you provide specific examples...that is, ACTUAL examples? I am under the impression that the "trinity doctrine" is of "New Testament" origin, and is not found in the "Old Testament." And even in the "New Testament" it is found only in a couple of places, not "throughout."

Apologies if I seem confrontational...that is not my intention. Rather, I believe that misunderstandings and generalizations are dangerous to understanding others' religions. Additionally, if this is not the place for this discussion, I would be happy to continue it via email and/or Messaging.

Joe

Hi Joe,
No worries.

Genesis 1:26: And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth. Let us make man to our image... This image of God in man, is not in the body, but in the soul; which is a spiritual substance, endued with understanding and free will. God speaketh here in the plural number, to insinuate the plurality of persons in the Deity.


Genesis 2:18 And the Lord God said: It is not good for man to be alone: let us make him a help like unto himself.

Genesis 3:15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel. She shall crush... [i]Ipsa, the woman; so divers of the fathers read this place, conformably to the Latin: others read it ipsum, viz., the seed. The sense is the same: for it is by her seed, Jesus Christ, that the woman crushes the serpent's head.

[/i]Here are a few examples from the first book of the Bible. I will give more later on. I must run now. Take care Joe.

God Bless,

Jon

[NoachideJoe]

Shalom Jon,

I'm sorry, but none of the examples that you provided suggest the existence of a trinity. PERHAPS a duality, but that is only natural, as nearly everything in our physical world (sorry, I can't speak for the spiritual realm, yet) generally exists in a dichotomous relationship. However, I really don't see that the "trinity doctrine" is specifically stated as such, nor alluded to, within the verses that you supplied.

Take care,
Joe

[Jim]

Genesis 3:15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel. She shall crush... [i]Ipsa, the woman; so divers of the fathers read this place, conformably to the Latin: others read it ipsum, viz., the seed. The sense is the same: for it is by her seed, Jesus Christ, that the woman crushes the serpent's head.

I think this is a stretch. For all we know according to the Hebrew and latin, God could have been talking about any of the billions of offspring, including me or you. To just plop Jesus name in the middle of a verse that has no personal designation is just shady. Muslim could just as easily say (by the same logic) that Muhammad is that seed. The same with people of any other major religion. Jews could say Moses is that seed.

But none of this goes to God being tempted by His creation, i.e. the Devil

[MagnaCarta]

Here is the actual verses:

Matthew 4:1-11 - "Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungered.

And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in [their] hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him."

I don't see anything in these verses to indicate that Jesus was God. The phrase "son of God" is a topic for another thread.

I interpret (as I am sure most Chrsitian scholars would) that Jesus being led of the spirit to the wilderness means literally he was led to the wilderness, not figuratively.

Therefore, he was literally hungered, like humans are. Satan is said to have tempted him. Magna's idea can possibly fit this portion of the scripture. However, the following scripture contradicts this view. Reading on you find that Satan literally took him to the Holy City, which implies that satan was a literal being who took Jesus someplace. Then he didn't tempt Jesus he challenged him to trust in God by throwing himself down because God promised already (in the OT) to protect him. Jesus clearly and literally told satan (a being) not to tempt Gods trust. Then Satan took him to another place and literally tempted him with worldly possessions. And then the clentcher that indicates that Jesus was not God (in my view), he clearly set himself apart from ANY dvinity when he reportedly said to Satan, "for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him."

God can't be tempted. Nor can he be challenged to disobey himself since he makes up the rules. In this situation, if Jesus were God in the flesh, it would be more appropriate to have said, "thou shalt worship me and me only shall you serve! Furthermore, the angels would not need to minister to God after such an instance for God has no need of any creature, sustanance or anything.

Actually, I would agree that Satan can appear as a 'being' as I did say that Satan was the source or actual power of temptation. Defining him though is hard, since he appeared as a snake in the Garden and he can appear even as an angel. This proves his mainstay is deception.

As for Jesus being God, I have my own understanding of this that has been with me from the start...in that Jesus, by virtue that while in the human flesh, was ONLY GODS WILL in word, action and deed, was able to fully caste off Satan or temptation, was of a virgin birth with no human sin to his record, is DIVINE. If you look at Jesus you will not see human ways, human will, human ego, human teachings, human understandings, or any of our human failings in his human life. So, all that was human about him WAS THE FLESH (which includes hunger, emotions, illness, and even death). That we know it is possible to overcome the temptations of the flesh by calling on GOD's WILL is what we have received in Jesus example. We also know exactly what this looks like because of Jesus, so we have a real WAY of worshipping God that is ordained only by God without any corruption or mingling of human nature.

Everything else, the most important things, (aren't we all in the flesh? is that ALL we are or all that matters?) were ONLY GOD.

This is not to say that Jesus is ALL of God, but he was indeed the holy aspects of God that are given for US to know for the sole purpose of revealing to all of humanity the pure will of GOD in the flesh.

In this manner, when you say "Jesus is God" you are speaking the fullness of truth. He is all that a human would BE if they were only BEING GODS WILL in the flesh.

Jesus own words support this perspective. "If you have seen me you have seen the Father". Another way to look at this is "If you have seen me you have NOT seen anything in my words, actions or deeds that wasn't willed by the Father". No other human being on the planet can make this claim.

Compare this to the role that a 'prophet' plays in God's history with humanity and you will understand the assignment of divinity to Jesus, which makes him much more than a prophet.

[Bloc]

Hi Bloc,
To say Paul invented the "trinity" is a bit ignorant. I know that is the polemic from Islamic apologist and it's ok but it is flat wrong. The mistake a lot of us make is being ignorant with eachother's teachings and taking it from the viewpoint of our own belief systems. We tend to interpret it to our liking. There are however basic tenents of faith that can be discussed that argue logic and mostly rely on faith. For instance I could point out that Allah spread his spirit out to the Earth and universe yet he sits beyond the clouds on a throne. Does that make him two Gods? So before we get into Paul and the trinity arguments let's try to approach eachother with compassion and a true thirst for knowledge. As far as Paul inventing the trinity Jesus himself said he and the Father are one. The trinity doctrine is throughout the Bible.

Jon, I think you may have misread, or at least read too much into my post. If you review it again, you'll notice that I did not say Paul invented the Trinitarian Doctrine, I just associated this understanding with him. There should be little doubt that he was one of the strongest proponents of this view among early Christians. There are after all Christians that believe in the same bible and the person of Jesus but not his divinity (Unitarians).

You also suggested that I am ignorant of Christianity. While I wouldn't consider myself an expert Christian scholar, I would say that I know more than the average person, as well as some Christians, particularly about the historical evolution of Christianity. I find many people that have strong faith in their religion actually know little of its background.

I don't mind being corrected, but it's another matter entirely when you're correcting a mistake I don't feel that I made. We can just chalk this up to miscommunication I guess .