[Asif]

Please, may I request that ...
we give Jewish people one week to respond to this question
... before the rest of us have a go at it?

Jewish people ONLY please for one week ... is that okay?

WHY did "the God of the Jews" allow the Holocaust to happen to "God's chosen people"?

This post has been edited by Asif: 26 July 2010 - 08:39 AM

[History]

Dear Asif,

G-d is G-d.
He is G-d of Jews, Muslims, Christians ... everyone.

Your question is a specific example of the general question, "Why does G-d permit suffering? pain? evil? ... or anything?"

For one Jewish answer to your question, please see: http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/...e-Holocaust.htm

For me, I do not blame G-d for the misdeeds of Man.
Per His Teaching in Scripture, we are each responsible for our own actions [Ezekiel 18:20] as well as responsible to each other [Beresheis (Genesis) 4:9].

Understand this one thing, I believe, and your life will make sense and have purpose.

Every human being possesses innate tendencies for good (yetzer hatov) and for evil (yetzer hara). We need learn to sublimate the latter and promote the former, in ourselves and in others. When we fail in this, we have suffering, pain, and tragedies like the Holocaust, the Armenian genocide, the Darfur genocide, the violence between Sunni and Shia, etc.
Is our failure G-d's fault?

G-d has given us the greatest of Gifts: Life and Creation; and His Teachings for ethical human behavior, in order to best enjoy His 1st two gifts and to help us mature as ethical spiritual beings.
He has also given us Free Will, to make either a Heaven or a Hell of His Gifts.

There is story derived from the teachings of Rebbinu Menachem Mendel of Kotsk that goes thus:

Upon his death, a man comes before the Throne of Judgment where G-d sits amidst the Heavenly Host of His angels.
The man rushes forward and shouts out, "My Lord, it's horrible down there! The suffering, the pain, the evil, the hatred, the bigotry, the injustice! Why didn't You DO something!!"
The angels are aghast at his effrontery, and the whole Court became deathly silent.
G-d looked down at the man a moment, then sighed and said with compassion:
"I did. I sent you."

Respectfully,
History

[spike]

G-d didn't allow the Holocaust, man did.

[Asif]

Dear Asif,
G-d is G-d. He is G-d of Jews, Muslims, Christians ... everyone.
Your question is a specific example of the general question, "Why does G-d permit suffering? pain? evil? ... or anything?"

Okay, your whole explanation is an excellent response.
I should have pointed out THE REASON for my original question,
which is that several Jewish persons have indicated to me personally
that they were confused about (had no answer to) this subject,
i.e. WHY would, HOW could, etc. God allow it to happen?

Especially, one man who had Doctorate certificates hanging everywhere,
along with personal letters to him from Presidents Reagan and Carter!
He said to me that he had been voted (or?) the most knowledgeable
(or some such title) Jewish scholar in America, although I'm sure
he never said he ever was a rabbi. He humbly claimed that he was
THE expert, but he also claimed that he had NO idea what the answer was.
So, my mind has been quite nicely blown ever since ... thank you very much!

So far, the correct answer (in my humble opinion) has not yet arrived,
and quite honestly, I don't expect it to.

This post has been edited by Asif: 26 July 2010 - 04:49 PM

[History]

There is no "correct" answer to the Holocaust, or other genocides, or Muslim on Muslim hatreds and violence...
Nor for why there is suffering, pain, evil...

There are only answers that suffice, for each of us.

Respectfully,
History (of a family of Holocaust and Russian pogrom survivors)

[snoopy]

Please, may I request that ...
we give Jewish people one week to respond to this question
... before the rest of us have a go at it?

Jewish people ONLY please for one week ... is that okay?

WHY did "the God of the Jews" allow the Holocaust to happen to "God's chosen people"?

May I suggest you read 'Night' by Elie Wiesel.

I think the correct question is why did humanity allow it to happen - all too often I see people use God as a dumping ground for things that we as humans have control over; why did humanity stand idly by as 7million people were systematically murdered? God gave us freedom, why have we as humanity failed to use it for good?

[spike]

Okay, your whole explanation is an excellent response.
I should have pointed out THE REASON for my original question,
which is that several Jewish persons have indicated to me personally
that they were confused about (had no answer to) this subject,
i.e. WHY would, HOW could, etc. God allow it to happen?

Perhaps those people should attend synagogue services and have some in depth discussions with their rabbis. The answer I use is contained in our weekly prayer book for all to see. I don't understand how a person could miss it.

So far, the correct answer (in my humble opinion) has not yet arrived,
and quite honestly, I don't expect it to.

Sometimes no answer IS the answer.

This post has been edited by spike: 26 July 2010 - 08:44 PM

[Asif]

Since this is a Jewish Forum, I thought it was not necessary to be specific.
But, perhaps the thread should really say ...

WHY did Jehovah God allow "His chosen people" to suffer the holocaust?

This post has been edited by Asif: 27 July 2010 - 02:53 PM

[spike]

Since this is a Jewish Forum, I thought it was not necessary to be specific.
But, perhaps the thread should really say ...

WHY did Jehovah God allow "His chosen people" to suffer the holocaust?

Being "chosen" had essentially nothing to do with the Holocaust. Again, G-d did not cause the Holocaust, man did. "Chosen" means simply to bring the light of the One G-d to the world, nothing more, nothing less. It is not a meaning of superiority.

[History]

Choosing G-d and thus being chosen by Him is choosing to acknowledge Him and assume the obligations and responsibilities to live as best one can per His teachings for ethical human behavior.

Thus, anyone can so choose.
It is not solely a Jewish thing.
It is a human one.

Respectfully,
History

[AbdMahdi12]

Salaam

everyone has to understand, that I have to do this. I dont have a choice, I have to speak aboslute haqq.

http://islamfactor.org/index.php?showtopic=7250 I made this thread, I want everyone to read it at this time, and try to understand what I am saying now


the holocaust is a lie. It has not happened. For the holocaust to have happened, certian requirements under the law had to be fulfilled, which would have been impossible to have been fulfilled by Nazi's.

but then, we all know that


and I am not trivializing what happened in Nazi germany, but it wasnt the holocaust!


take care

[spike]

Salaam

everyone has to understand, that I have to do this. I dont have a choice, I have to speak aboslute haqq.

http://islamfactor.org/index.php?showtopic=7250 I made this thread, I want everyone to read it at this time, and try to understand what I am saying now


the holocaust is a lie. It has not happened. For the holocaust to have happened, certian requirements under the law had to be fulfilled, which would have been impossible to have been fulfilled by Nazi's.

but then, we all know that


and I am not trivializing what happened in Nazi germany, but it wasnt the holocaust!


take care

A few in my extended family are/were Holocaust survivors, the majority were not so fortunate. It happened.

It is in no way connected to your "19".

[ygalg]

@AbdMahdi12
are you arguing semantics or are you disputing the genocide?

@Asif
in the bible god permits genocides. he permits killing from infancy to elderly. it gives the impression that a sin is in DNA.

IMO if god exist, he is like a child who builds castles out of the sand and then stomps to ruin just for the heck of it. why? because Yes, he can!

[snoopy]

@AbdMahdi12
are you arguing semantics or are you disputing the genocide?

@Asif
in the bible god permits genocides. he permits killing from infancy to elderly. it gives the impression that a sin is in DNA.

IMO if god exist, he is like a child who builds castles out of the sand and then stomps to ruin just for the heck of it. why? because Yes, he can!

Depends, if you look at the bible and the actual history itself you'll find that no such genocides took place so one has to view the Tanakh within the context of history and ask why were such stories created when compared to what the reality was actually like on the ground.

[AbdMahdi12]

I am definitely arguing semantics.

as I previously stated, this was not said to triviolize anything that happened in germany. it is to say literally there is no possibly way it can be called the holocaust. You can use any other wording you like, but you cannot use that particular one.


if we are going to translate holocaust it translates to the 'olah or the whole burnt sacrifice made to G-d. The bullock of the 'olah, when the offense had been committed either by a priest or by the whole people, was burned entire outside the camp even the skin being consumed, which was not the case with the burnt offering.

now, you all should go back to your Holy Books to learn more about human sacrifice, and the requirements that must have been met for any killing of Jews to have been considered a whole burnt offering to G-d. (you will find a lot in prophesy here too) These requirements could never have been fulfilled in the Nazi germans.

This post has been edited by AbdMahdi12: 28 July 2010 - 06:54 AM

[snoopy]

I am definitely arguing semantics.

as I previously stated, this was not said to triviolize anything that happened in germany. it is to say literally there is no possibly way it can be called the holocaust. You can use any other wording you like, but you cannot use that particular one.


if we are going to translate holocaust it translates to the 'olah or the whole burnt sacrifice made to G-d. The bullock of the 'olah, when the offense had been committed either by a priest or by the whole people, was burned entire outside the camp even the skin being consumed, which was not the case with the burnt offering.

now, you all should go back to your Holy Books to learn more about human sacrifice, and the requirements that must have been met for any killing of Jews to have been considered a whole burnt offering to G-d. (you will find a lot in prophesy here too) These requirements could never have been fulfilled in the Nazi germans.

Ok then we'll call it the Shoah which is a more accurate term given that holocaust being wholly burn offering within the context of sacrifice to a God or Gods. You find that people don't use the Shoah that often because people look at you confused trying to work out what the heck you've just said - holocaust, rightfully or wrongfully, has become part of the discourse these days.

[Asif]

Being "chosen" had essentially nothing to do with the Holocaust. Again, G-d did not cause the Holocaust, man did.
"Chosen" means simply to bring the light of the One G-d to the world, nothing more, nothing less. It is not a meaning of superiority.

I've always known it had nothing to do with superiority.
God had to choose SOME people group:
(1) to prove to everyone that was totally impossible to satisy a totally Holy God
(2) to bring forth His Messiah/Redeemer/Savior through them

So, while He was accomplishing this ...
He chose the WEAKEST people group to defend (He had to protect them because of (2) above,
and He demonstrated to everyone what an Almighty God He really is (through His miracles).
" 'Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit', says the Lord of Hosts." (Zechariah 4:6)

This post has been edited by Asif: 28 July 2010 - 12:13 PM

[Asif]

the holocaust is a lie. It has not happened. For the holocaust to have happened, certian requirements
under the law had to be fulfilled, which would have been impossible to have been fulfilled by Nazi's.

If there is anyone who is more DECEIVED than 12 about everything, I'd sure like to know who he/she is.

12, hundreds of servicemen came back from Germany in 1945 and told us what they saw.
Some even had photos taken with their own cameras.
Perhaps, in your infinite wisdom, you'd like to tell us why they would lie to us about this.
I think we could all do with a good laugh right about now.
Confucius also say: "Laughter is good for the soul."

12, you didn't make it clear at all that you were talking semantics. Be more careful next time.

This post has been edited by Asif: 28 July 2010 - 12:32 PM

[AbdMahdi12]

Ok then we'll call it the Shoah which is a more accurate term given that holocaust being wholly burn offering within the context of sacrifice to a God or Gods. You find that people don't use the Shoah that often because people look at you confused trying to work out what the heck you've just said - holocaust, rightfully or wrongfully, has become part of the discourse these days.

I agree with Shoah, and yes I know that no one will understand if it is now called shoah, but it is a serious enough error that I believe as people we ought to rectify through education. Its much more than just a misnomer, I believe the 'powers that be' had a very definite purpose in trying to pass what happened in nazi germany off as 'the' or 'a' Holocaust. This is too big a thing to try to hide, or brush under the carpet. We CANNOT ever call it a holocaust.


in order to learn from the past, and make a better future for ALL the peoples of the world, we cannot make the same mistakes of the past peoples, and we cannot hide what the holocaust truly will be if we dont start standing up now, and taking actual notice of what is happening around us, and what our governments (not yours...lol Mr New Zealand! (heck maybe ill move there with ya!) are doing, we have to stop the real holocaust, and can only do so now, if we all together start to repent, all at the same time, decide this is enough now....

because it really is enough, and its almost too late

if you remember in the hell thread I explained why hell might not be speaking of the afterlife, and in the thread I linked to in this thread I showed further evidence that this hell being spoken of has nothing to do with the afterlife, and everything to do with something much different. I need to do more research, but I am at the point now in the propecies I (think.. lol) that I am very close to being able to say according to all three texts who is going to fire the nuclear warhead and at which country it will hit. though I admit that something is wrong in my thinking so far, I am missing a piece of the 'prophetic puzzle' or not understanding something very clearly, so here is where I could be wrong, but I feel as if even if I am wrong, we should take every precaution against the goverments of both US and Isreal from keeping nuclear warheads any longer, as this is just plain good for everyones health, they want the world to be so worried about everyone else and decide somehow its still ok for them to be able to destroy the earth 100 times over..lol... thats too insane.

though I will never be able to say when, because this I dont know, but now we are up to this point in the prophesies, we are to the point of not much longer and the next sign will be nuclear war and one more thing which I wont say.

and you can either believe me, or call me insane either is possible im sure

This post has been edited by AbdMahdi12: 28 July 2010 - 01:21 PM

[ygalg]

Depends, if you look at the bible and the actual history itself you'll find that no such genocides took place so one has to view the Tanakh within the context of history and ask why were such stories created when compared to what the reality was actually like on the ground.

the bible does not condemn genocides. condone of killing infants. it is in contrary to just and merciful god. we are not arguing whether it happen or not. the issue is why god permits a genocide to occur. perhaps god was estimated wrongly. humans do tend to exaggeration. for instance Buddha was a human being with unusual trait. he loved men instead of women. but because of his contribution he is elevated as to god. Santa Claus another example of exaggeration. and even Jesus. tho god apparently may be entirely a human fantasy. and judging from the bible god is the opposite from being merciful or perfect.