Dear Jim,
Thank you for your post.
I think that there should be a distinction between political zionism and spiritual or religious zionism today.
Why?
The two share the same essence: recognition that Israel is the eternal promised homeland of the Jewish nation.
This is direct from G-d's Word in Torah (see below). Thus, by your nomenclature,
all Jews are "
religious" Zionists.
The State of Israel is the political realization of this shared belief. And, except for a small minority who disagree over the timing of the establishment of the Jewish State, the overwhelming majority of World Jewry are, per your definition, "
political" Zionists in their belief and support for the existence of the State of Israel. "Political Zionism" is merely modern Israeli national identity--including those of its non-Jewish population who identify themselves as Israelis; and including non-Israeli Jews and non-Jews who similarly support and recognize the national identity (and responsibilities) of the State of Israel.
QUOTE
First, not all Israelis are Jews
Jus tlike not all Arabs are Muslims.
True. And true. But unrelated to the topic of Zionism, in my humble opinion.
QUOTE
History, I will be direct (I dont like to beat around the bush) but I by no means intend to offend, okay?
This is religiously speaking, not politically or otherwise.
No problem, Jim.
I am much the same.
QUOTE
Todays Israel is not seen as the Israel that Moses founded or intended, nor does today's zionism represent Judaism's goals or best interests.
I completely disagree with you.
Thus I need ask (1) who does not see Israel as you suggest?
And (2) on what basis do you justify that Zionism [the belief in support of the Jewish homeland/nation in Israel] is not in
"Judaism's goals or best interests".
And (3) what do you believe is in Judaism's
"best interests"?
QUOTE
Today's Israel cannot be equated to true Zionism as founded by Moses because it violates the very Torah revealed to him in order to establish it.
It does not violate Torah, Jim.
What a strange accusation.
You must provide justification for it.
To what statement by Moses (or, actually, to G-d, Blessed be His Name) are you referring.
QUOTE
First, Original Israel (created with the covenant with Moses) was destroyed by God because of early Israelite disobedience as specified in the Torah itself.
Again, Jim, if you wish to make an accusation, you should at least justify it by providing the exact reference. I can then help by providing a knowledgable reply to what I perceive as your misunderstanding.
Most of those who wish to make such claims are very selective in their picking and choosing from the various verses of Torah (and Talmud, ftm); for their interest is not in understanding the whole of G-d's Word to Israel--only that which they feel justifies their intention and purpose. Israeli history is old, going into the earliest of recorded human history; while Israel and its forebears (e.g. Father Avraham) have been forced out (by famine, by war, by disobedience, by the machinations of her enemies), G-d has stated:
וַהֲקִמֹתִי אֶת-בְּרִיתִי בֵּינִי וּבֵינֶךָ, וּבֵין זַרְעֲךָ אַחֲרֶיךָ לְדֹרֹתָם--לִבְרִית עוֹלָם: לִהְיוֹת לְךָ לֵאלֹהִים, וּלְזַרְעֲךָ אַחֲרֶיךָ. וְנָתַתִּי לְךָ וּלְזַרְעֲךָ אַחֲרֶיךָ אֵת אֶרֶץ מְגֻרֶיךָ, אֵת כָּל-אֶרֶץ כְּנַעַן, לַאֲחֻזַּת, עוֹלָם; וְהָיִיתִי לָהֶם, לֵאלֹהִים.And I will establish My covenant between Me and thee and thy seed after thee throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee and to thy seed after thee. And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land of thy sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.'
--Beresheis 17:7-8
Thus, G-d brings Israel back again and again (from Egypt, from Babylon, from the Roman Diaspora) to possession of the Holy Land--as per His Eternal Word.
QUOTE
Second, God judged Israel and terminated His covenant to found a permanant homeland for the Hebrews in a state called Israel and fulfilled his propmise to scatter the Hebrews (all 12 tribes including the Jews, ie Judah) among the nations as he promised if they did not keep the covenant. They did not keep the covenant.
Again, Jim. It would be proper for you to provide a source on which you base your statement.
Your statement is incorrect.
Unlike Man, G-d
never goes back on ("terminates") His Word:
לֹא אִישׁ אֵל וִיכַזֵּב, וּבֶן-אָדָם וְיִתְנֶחָם; הַהוּא אָמַר וְלֹא יַעֲשֶׂה, וְדִבֶּר וְלֹא יְקִימֶנָּה.God is not a man, that He should lie; neither the son of man, that He should repent: when He hath said, will He not do it? or when He hath spoken, will He not make it good?--Bamidbar 23:18.
He specifically states in many places in Scripture that His covenant with Israel is
eternal regardless of our human faults and failings (G-d is G-d and He Alone!):
He hath remembered His Covenant forever,
the word which He commanded to a thousand generations;
The covenant which He made with Abraham,
and His oath unto Isaac;
And He established it unto Jacob for a statute,
to Israel for an everlasting covenant. --Tehillim (Psalms) 105:8-10
And the angel of HaShem came up from Gilgal to Bochim.
And he said: '...I made you to go up out of Egypt, and
have brought you unto the land which I swore unto your
fathers; and I said: I will never break My covenant with you. --Judges 2:1
Thus saith HaShem, Who giveth the sun for a light by day,
and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light
by night, who stirreth up the sea, that the waves thereof roar,
HaShem of hosts is His name:
If these ordinances depart from before Me, saith HaShem, then
the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before
Me for ever.
Thus saith HaShem: If heaven above can be measured, and the
foundations of the earth searched out beneath, then will I
also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have
done, saith HaShem. --Jeremiah 31:35-37
In other words, Jim:
Never.
And just like a parent with His child, our misdeeds may earn us punishment, but His love and covenant with us is eternal. Which is His message in the Book of the Prophet Hosea:
And the Lord said unto me: 'Go yet, love a woman beloved of her friend and an adulteress, even as the Lord loveth the children of Israel, though they turn unto other gods, and love cakes of raisins.--Hosea 3:1-2
Yet, His love is eternal and always draws us back:
And I will betroth thee unto Me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto Me in righteousness, and in justice, and in lovingkindness, and in compassion.--Hosea 2:21-22
QUOTE
Third, todays Israel is not ruled by the laws of Justice of the Torah (or many other Torah laws required by God) and violated the Law in the creation of the state and in how it treats the "strangers that live among them."
Also a strange statement.
Much of the democratic world, including Israel, is "
ruled by the Laws of Jusice of the Torah," from my perspective. E.g. The establishments of courts; the application of one law for all its citizens; etc. Many also share the break (Sabbath) in the work week, and promote the same ideals of public education, charity, kindness to animals, and community service.
Again, there is nothing in the establishment of Israel that "
violates" the Torah.
Nor is there a commandment for
perfection in the functioning of the State, merely the commandment to
strive for it:
צֶדֶק צֶדֶק, תִּרְדֹּף--לְמַעַן תִּחְיֶה וְיָרַשְׁתָּ אֶת-הָאָרֶץ, אֲשֶׁר-יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ נֹתֵן לָךְ. Justice, justice shalt thou follow, that thou mayest live, and inherit the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. --Devarim 16:20
QUOTE
So, when we look at Jews and Judaism, they are separate from Zionism. Zionism is a political movement that includes not only Jews but Christians as well who long to create a political state of Israel in order to fulfill end times prophecy with the hopes of Jesus return to force convert the Jews to Christianity by accepting him as the Son of God, God in the flesh.
Thats it in a nutshell I think.
Just shell, in my humble opinion.
But, please proceed and provide the quotes by Moses and in Torah which you believe justify your statements. I will have better chance to perceive how you came erroneoulsy, per my knowledge of Hebrew Scripture, to your views.
Respectfully,
History
Help
