Being "Chosen" Options

[History]

Since it came up elsewhere here, and because most non-Jews (and many Jews) do not fully understand the meaning of "Chosen People" in Hebrew Scripture and Judaism, I offer for your edification my following reply to a post by a Muslim member of another Islamic forum:

Thank you for your post.

Regarding:

The very notion of a chosen people is the basic of Nazism.

Not in the Biblical sense. In fact, Nazism is the antithesis of being chosen of and chosing G-d.

Being "chosen" is not what most non-Jews think it is--nor is it something to be desired by the faint-hearted.

There remains, in some, a sad misunderstanding (and inappropriate hatred and even jealousy) of the term "Chosen people" as applied by G-d to the Jews. That of all the people in the world, G-d chose the Jews to be his messengers to mankind.

William Norman Ewer (1885-1976) once wrote 'How odd/of G-d/to choose/ the Jews,' to which the equally well-known reply by Cecil Browne: 'But not so odd/As those who choose/A Jewish G-d/But spurn the Jews' and the riposte came from the American author and Yiddishist Leo Rosten: 'Not odd/Of G-d./Goyim/Annoy/'im.'

But light-hearted banter aside, historically some Christians and Muslims have both pointed to this designation as Jewish arrogance while simultaneously claiming that the Jews have been abandoned by G-d and now they are now the "new" Chosen People.

The initial Church fathers and Moslem adherents (even Mohammed himself) made these claims, with you could say some spite by the way, once the Jews did not mass convert to their new faiths that claimed to be the "fulfillment" of Jewish prophecies. If the Jews did not accept these claims, it seemingly undermined these new faiths; and so led to the accusations and, unfortunately, the persecutions. Having Jews around reminded everyone that the original followers of the One G-d denied the "truth" of the new faiths.

But what does it mean to be "Chosen?"

The Jews' chosenness confers neither privilege or superiority, only obligation and suffering:

"Since I have known only you of all the peoples of the Earth, I will visit upon you all your sins"
--[Amos 3:2].

The Jews are chosen only to complete a task: to make humanity aware of the Supreme Moral Being; the one G-d of righteousness and holiness, through living by His Teachings. And with the millions of subsequent Christians and Muslims in the world, we seem to have succeeded.

The Jews were chosen "to be a light among the nations" to bring them G-d's ethical laws and His love of justice for the weak as well as the strong, the poor as well as the rich, the slave as well as the master,... It is an onerous task. When people saw a Jew they were reminded of G-d and his commandments, of His requirement to live a life of righteousness. Since most do not live such a life, the guilt breeds anger, then hate, and the Jew was again the target of many non-Jew's frustration. Nazi antisemtism is thus a violent opposition of the responsibilities and obligations of being Chosen by and Choosing G-d.

In response to such antipathy, Tevye asks G-d in Fiddler on the Roof, "Perhaps you could 'choose' someone else some of the time?"

Many call the Jews a "race". We are not. Jews are caucasian, semitic, oriental, african-american ... Anyone of any race or nationality can become a Jew and choose to be chosen.

Our Sages teach: "Whoever assumes the Jewish task becomes a member of 'the Chosen people'"--even if they're Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist . . .

I find this akin to the Muslim teaching that "being Muslim" is a way of living, thus the Jewish Patriarch Abraham, Moses and the Prophets, even Adam were "Muslim."

Similarly, they were all "Jews" and "Chosen."

One need not be Jewish to "act Jewish," as G-d commands per His Word in Hebrew Scripture. This is why, the Sages recognized, "The righteous among all the nations of the earth have a share in the world to come."--[Talmud, Tosefta Sanhedin 13:2].

I will admit, speaking for myself, that I believe it does help, however.


But as we know that G-d judges every human being by what he/she does and not by what religion he/she claims to belong to:

We are all Chosen--if we so choose.

Respectfully,

History

See: http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chosen_people

[fatima2003]

well im sorry i dont see them suffering... i see them saying htis is my right and ill kill for it... this nazi philosophy is simply what they are doing to the palestinians..... im sure there are good jews in this world who may actually try to follow the teachings of judaism but i really dont see it... they hate they steal they murder for what they call "their right" while forgetting others rights and not caring.... they no longer follow any philosophy but self and "right" while i have as many rights as they they do not recognize mine...... they are no better than hitler in their actions.....its little wonder allah he take prophesy and the book form them.............I have nothing more to say as nothing i say makes any difference and all peopel want to do is cry about how the jews have a right to treat us liek dogs......but go ahaead tell people how great you are the world seems to fall this line of garbage......

This post has been edited by fatema_shia: Apr 25 2008, 08:13 AM

[Jim]

I must clarify that not all Jews are killing Palestinians, nor do all Jews subscribe to Zionism.

Also, I have noticed the attitude of some Arabs (not all) of a "Chosen" mentality in that Allah sent the final Prophet through them.

I think that God does "Chose" this and that but He has no favorites, except through righteousness, faith and good works.

[History]

well im sorry i dont see them suffering... i see them saying htis is my right and ill kill for it... this nazi philosophy is simply what they are doing to the palestinians..... im sure there are good jews in this world who may actually try to follow the teachings of judaism but i really dont see it... they hate they steal they murder for what they call "their right" while forgetting others rights and not caring.... they no longer follow any philosophy but self and "right" while i have as many rights as they they do not recognize mine...... they are no better than hitler in their actions.....its little wonder allah he take prophesy and the book form them.............I have nothing more to say as nothing i say makes any difference and all peopel want to do is cry about how the jews have a right to treat us liek dogs......but go ahaead tell people how great you are the world seems to fall this line of garbage......

One could as easily reverse this, and state one can only see the evil Muslims are performing against not only non-Muslims but fellow Muslims--"that "they hate they steal they murder for what they call 'their right' while forgetting others rights and not caring.... they no longer follow any philosophy but self and 'right' while i have as many rights as they t.hey do not recognize mine...... they are no better than hitler in their actions." Few actually follow the teachings of Islam.
Be wary of generalizations and in creating demons to justify your hatred.
This would be Hitlerian.

Respectfully,
History

[History]

I must clarify that not all Jews are killing Palestinians, nor do all Jews subscribe to Zionism.

Also, I have noticed the attitude of some Arabs (not all) of a "Chosen" mentality in that Allah sent the final Prophet through them.

I think that God does "Chose" this and that but He has no favorites, except through righteousness, faith and good works.

Thank you for your post, Jim.
I concur with most of it.
However, a question:
How come some Muslims wish to claim (incorrectly, btw) that Judaism is completely separate from Zionism (the acknowledgment that Israel/Zion is the eternal homeland of the Jewish people under G-d, as per Torah), then in the same sentence state "...Jews are killing Palestinians"--instead of "Israelis are..." or "Zionists are..."?
The usage is contradictory.

Respectfully,
History

This post has been edited by History: Apr 25 2008, 10:21 AM

[Coexist]

Good point History, but I believe she was referring to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict and how Israel (the Jews) are being backed (by the US especially) with not only funds but also war goods (jets, tanks, ammo). The Palestinians are suffering greatly, their goods are rationed, they're cut off from their farms, schools, work... The Israelis seem to have forgotten their own suffering under Hitler, and are now dishing it out to the Palestinians.

Of course, she may correct me if I am wrong in my assumption.

[Jim]

Thank you for your post, Jim.
I concur with most of it.
However, a question:
How come some Muslims wish to claim (incorrectly, btw) that Judaism is completely separate from Zionism (the acknowledgment that Israel/Zion is the eternal homeland of the Jewish people under G-d, as per Torah), then in the same sentence state "...Jews are killing Palestinians"--instead of "Israelis are..." or "Zionists are..."?
The usage is contradictory.

Respectfully,
History

I think that there should be a distinction between political zionism and spiritual or religious zionism today. First, not all Israelis are Jews Jus tlike not all Arabs are Muslims.

History, I will be direct (I dont like to beat around the bush) but I by no means intend to offend, okay? This is religiously speaking, not politically or otherwise.

Todays Israel is not seen as the Israel that Moses founded or intended, nor does today's zionism represent Judaism's goals or best interests. Today's Israel cannot be equated to true Zionism as founded by Moses because it violates the very Torah revealed to him in order to establish it.

First, Original Israel (created with the covenant with Moses) was destroyed by God because of early Israelite disobedience as specified in the Torah itself.

Second, God judged Israel and terminated His covenant to found a permanant homeland for the Hebrews in a state called Israel and fulfilled his propmise to scatter the Hebrews (all 12 tribes including the Jews, ie Judah) among the nations as he promised if they did not keep the covenant. They did not keep the covenant.

Third, todays Israel is not ruled by the laws of Justice of the Torah (or many other Torah laws required by God) and violated the Law in the creation of the state and in how it treats the "strangers that live among them."

So, when we look at Jews and Judaism, they are separate from Zionism. Zionism is a political movement that includes not only Jews but Christians as well who long to create a political state of Israel in order to fulfill end times prophecy with the hopes of Jesus return to force convert the Jews to Christianity by accepting him as the Son of God, God in the flesh.

Thats it in a nutshell I think.

[fatima2003]

ill make a small point ..... I am palestinian form the gaza strip... and they all call them selves jews......Raellee is correct in her statement 100% fully correct.....

This post has been edited by fatema_shia: Apr 25 2008, 11:40 AM

[fatima2003]

one more little fact... i am not arab i am semite and my ancestry i can terace back farther than any jew i have met.... it is that my forefather accept islam as thier reliigon.... for this we are slaughtered......

[fatima2003]

one more small point here to make... how is judiasm different than zionism.... arent you all fed zionism for breakfast? i went to chicago and i stay in the muslim neighborhood there and to get to the muslim neighborhood you have to drive through the jewish neighborhood, all lined up on every street corner in front of every apartment houses there was signs "We Stand With Isreal" and i go through the street and i wear hijab and they all look to me liek they wish to kill me and i was soooo afraid.... i never did nothing... now you go to the muslim neighborhood and there are no signs just peopl they live nice and peaceful... dont do nothing to no one and no signs for palestine..... just peopel they be nice..... can you tell me why this is?????????? why cannot i nto be safe in a jewish neighborhood in chicago Illinois?

[Coexist]

Sis, it's not like that everywhere. I work with a couple of Jewish men, and we get along, even discuss religion on breaks. We eat lunch together, share pictures of the kiddos, and everything.

There is going to be hatred, sadly, everywhere we look. But it's not only Jew v Arab, it's Black v White, Gang v Gang, this side of town v that side of town, this country v that country....

Just as we don't want to be painted as terrorists, we can't paint Jews all with one brush either. Ever heard of Jews for Palestine? There are Jews (and Christians and Pagans and Atheists) who sympathize with the Palestinians. There are people all over the world who want the fighting to stop, and who want things to be fair for everyone.

[History]

Dear Jim,
Thank you for your post.

I think that there should be a distinction between political zionism and spiritual or religious zionism today.

Why?
The two share the same essence: recognition that Israel is the eternal promised homeland of the Jewish nation.
This is direct from G-d's Word in Torah (see below). Thus, by your nomenclature, all Jews are "religious" Zionists.
The State of Israel is the political realization of this shared belief. And, except for a small minority who disagree over the timing of the establishment of the Jewish State, the overwhelming majority of World Jewry are, per your definition, "political" Zionists in their belief and support for the existence of the State of Israel. "Political Zionism" is merely modern Israeli national identity--including those of its non-Jewish population who identify themselves as Israelis; and including non-Israeli Jews and non-Jews who similarly support and recognize the national identity (and responsibilities) of the State of Israel.

First, not all Israelis are Jews Jus tlike not all Arabs are Muslims.

True. And true. But unrelated to the topic of Zionism, in my humble opinion.

History, I will be direct (I dont like to beat around the bush) but I by no means intend to offend, okay? This is religiously speaking, not politically or otherwise.

No problem, Jim.
I am much the same.

Todays Israel is not seen as the Israel that Moses founded or intended, nor does today's zionism represent Judaism's goals or best interests.

I completely disagree with you.
Thus I need ask (1) who does not see Israel as you suggest?
And (2) on what basis do you justify that Zionism [the belief in support of the Jewish homeland/nation in Israel] is not in "Judaism's goals or best interests".
And (3) what do you believe is in Judaism's "best interests"?

Today's Israel cannot be equated to true Zionism as founded by Moses because it violates the very Torah revealed to him in order to establish it.

It does not violate Torah, Jim.
What a strange accusation.
You must provide justification for it.
To what statement by Moses (or, actually, to G-d, Blessed be His Name) are you referring.

First, Original Israel (created with the covenant with Moses) was destroyed by God because of early Israelite disobedience as specified in the Torah itself.

Again, Jim, if you wish to make an accusation, you should at least justify it by providing the exact reference. I can then help by providing a knowledgable reply to what I perceive as your misunderstanding.
Most of those who wish to make such claims are very selective in their picking and choosing from the various verses of Torah (and Talmud, ftm); for their interest is not in understanding the whole of G-d's Word to Israel--only that which they feel justifies their intention and purpose. Israeli history is old, going into the earliest of recorded human history; while Israel and its forebears (e.g. Father Avraham) have been forced out (by famine, by war, by disobedience, by the machinations of her enemies), G-d has stated:

וַהֲקִמֹתִי אֶת-בְּרִיתִי בֵּינִי וּבֵינֶךָ, וּבֵין זַרְעֲךָ אַחֲרֶיךָ לְדֹרֹתָם--לִבְרִית עוֹלָם: לִהְיוֹת לְךָ לֵאלֹהִים, וּלְזַרְעֲךָ אַחֲרֶיךָ.
וְנָתַתִּי לְךָ וּלְזַרְעֲךָ אַחֲרֶיךָ אֵת אֶרֶץ מְגֻרֶיךָ, אֵת כָּל-אֶרֶץ כְּנַעַן, לַאֲחֻזַּת, עוֹלָם; וְהָיִיתִי לָהֶם, לֵאלֹהִים.
And I will establish My covenant between Me and thee and thy seed after thee throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee and to thy seed after thee. And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land of thy sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.'
--Beresheis 17:7-8

Thus, G-d brings Israel back again and again (from Egypt, from Babylon, from the Roman Diaspora) to possession of the Holy Land--as per His Eternal Word.

Second, God judged Israel and terminated His covenant to found a permanant homeland for the Hebrews in a state called Israel and fulfilled his propmise to scatter the Hebrews (all 12 tribes including the Jews, ie Judah) among the nations as he promised if they did not keep the covenant. They did not keep the covenant.

Again, Jim. It would be proper for you to provide a source on which you base your statement.
Your statement is incorrect.
Unlike Man, G-d never goes back on ("terminates") His Word:

לֹא אִישׁ אֵל וִיכַזֵּב, וּבֶן-אָדָם וְיִתְנֶחָם; הַהוּא אָמַר וְלֹא יַעֲשֶׂה, וְדִבֶּר וְלֹא יְקִימֶנָּה.
God is not a man, that He should lie; neither the son of man, that He should repent: when He hath said, will He not do it? or when He hath spoken, will He not make it good?
--Bamidbar 23:18.

He specifically states in many places in Scripture that His covenant with Israel is eternal regardless of our human faults and failings (G-d is G-d and He Alone!):

He hath remembered His Covenant forever,
the word which He commanded to a thousand generations;
The covenant which He made with Abraham,
and His oath unto Isaac;
And He established it unto Jacob for a statute,
to Israel for an everlasting covenant.
--Tehillim (Psalms) 105:8-10

And the angel of HaShem came up from Gilgal to Bochim.
And he said: '...I made you to go up out of Egypt, and
have brought you unto the land which I swore unto your
fathers; and I said: I will never break My covenant with you.
--Judges 2:1

Thus saith HaShem, Who giveth the sun for a light by day,
and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light
by night, who stirreth up the sea, that the waves thereof roar,
HaShem of hosts is His name:
If these ordinances depart from before Me, saith HaShem, then
the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before
Me for ever.
Thus saith HaShem: If heaven above can be measured, and the
foundations of the earth searched out beneath, then will I
also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have
done, saith HaShem.
--Jeremiah 31:35-37

In other words, Jim: Never.

And just like a parent with His child, our misdeeds may earn us punishment, but His love and covenant with us is eternal. Which is His message in the Book of the Prophet Hosea:

And the Lord said unto me: 'Go yet, love a woman beloved of her friend and an adulteress, even as the Lord loveth the children of Israel, though they turn unto other gods, and love cakes of raisins.
--Hosea 3:1-2

Yet, His love is eternal and always draws us back:

And I will betroth thee unto Me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto Me in righteousness, and in justice, and in lovingkindness, and in compassion.
--Hosea 2:21-22

Third, todays Israel is not ruled by the laws of Justice of the Torah (or many other Torah laws required by God) and violated the Law in the creation of the state and in how it treats the "strangers that live among them."

Also a strange statement.
Much of the democratic world, including Israel, is "ruled by the Laws of Jusice of the Torah," from my perspective. E.g. The establishments of courts; the application of one law for all its citizens; etc. Many also share the break (Sabbath) in the work week, and promote the same ideals of public education, charity, kindness to animals, and community service.
Again, there is nothing in the establishment of Israel that "violates" the Torah.
Nor is there a commandment for perfection in the functioning of the State, merely the commandment to strive for it:

צֶדֶק צֶדֶק, תִּרְדֹּף--לְמַעַן תִּחְיֶה וְיָרַשְׁתָּ אֶת-הָאָרֶץ, אֲשֶׁר-יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ נֹתֵן לָךְ.
Justice, justice shalt thou follow, that thou mayest live, and inherit the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
--Devarim 16:20

So, when we look at Jews and Judaism, they are separate from Zionism. Zionism is a political movement that includes not only Jews but Christians as well who long to create a political state of Israel in order to fulfill end times prophecy with the hopes of Jesus return to force convert the Jews to Christianity by accepting him as the Son of God, God in the flesh.
Thats it in a nutshell I think.

Just shell, in my humble opinion.
But, please proceed and provide the quotes by Moses and in Torah which you believe justify your statements. I will have better chance to perceive how you came erroneoulsy, per my knowledge of Hebrew Scripture, to your views.

Respectfully,
History

[History]

Sis, it's not like that everywhere. I work with a couple of Jewish men, and we get along, even discuss religion on breaks. We eat lunch together, share pictures of the kiddos, and everything.

There is going to be hatred, sadly, everywhere we look. But it's not only Jew v Arab, it's Black v White, Gang v Gang, this side of town v that side of town, this country v that country....

Just as we don't want to be painted as terrorists, we can't paint Jews all with one brush either. Ever heard of Jews for Palestine? There are Jews (and Christians and Pagans and Atheists) who sympathize with the Palestinians. There are people all over the world who want the fighting to stop, and who want things to be fair for everyone.

True, Raelee.
Most Jews support the creation of a peaceful Palestinian State in the West Bank and Gaza alongsie Israel, and support those in the Palestinian community who share the same dream.
But it is difficult.
Merely demonstrating support of those seeking peace with Israel can lead to their rejection by Palestinians; while opposition to those who publically state they seek the extermination of Israel (Hamas, Iran, Hizbollah) leads to their support by Palestinians.
Do Palestinians, and Muslims in general, want peace with Israel?
Or do they seek her destruction?
This uncertainty is what plagues the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (and Jewish-Muslim relations, and Muslim-West relations) and inhibits constructive results, in my humble opinion.

Respectfully,
History

[Jim]

Thank you History.

Thought the Torah was the first five books of Moses.

Judges, Jeremiah, etc are not Torah. No one knows the writer of the Book of Judges. Jeremiah was killed by the early Hebrews and now we find a book ascribed to his name added to the Jewish Scriptures 200 years CE during the Rabbinical compilation of the Jewish Tanakh.

Im talking torah here, the very basic.

To answer your post will take pages of content. I will just put this single set of passages out there to prove the point about the termination of the Covenant made with Moses for disobedience.

Deuteronomy 28

15 However, if you do not obey the LORD your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come upon you and overtake you:

.....

58 If you do not carefully follow all the words of this law, which are written in this book, and do not revere this glorious and awesome name��"the LORD your God- 59 the LORD will send fearful plagues on you and your descendants, harsh and prolonged disasters, and severe and lingering illnesses. 60 He will bring upon you all the diseases of Egypt that you dreaded, and they will cling to you. 61 The LORD will also bring on you every kind of sickness and disaster not recorded in this Book of the Law, until you are destroyed. 62 You who were as numerous as the stars in the sky will be left but few in number, because you did not obey the LORD your God. 63 Just as it pleased the LORD to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you. You will be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess.

64 Then the LORD will scatter you among all nations, from one end of the earth to the other. There you will worship other gods��"gods of wood and stone, which neither you nor your fathers have known. 65 Among those nations you will find no repose, no resting place for the sole of your foot. There the LORD will give you an anxious mind, eyes weary with longing, and a despairing heart. 66 You will live in constant suspense, filled with dread both night and day, never sure of your life. 67 In the morning you will say, "If only it were evening!" and in the evening, "If only it were morning!"-because of the terror that will fill your hearts and the sights that your eyes will see. 68 The LORD will send you back in ships to Egypt on a journey I said you should never make again. There you will offer yourselves for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but no one will buy you.


And thus Israel was in fact destroyed by the Babylonian invasion in the manner described by these verses.

[Geshtinnanna]

There remains, in some, a sad misunderstanding (and inappropriate hatred and even jealousy) of the term "Chosen people" as applied by G-d to the Jews. That of all the people in the world, G-d chose the Jews to be his messengers to mankind.

Ok, I can see where that comes from. But I must also think they are no better than the rest of us. Even the Quran states that. At least from what I've been reading so forgive me if I am off track

[Jim]

True, Raelee.
Most Jews support the creation of a peaceful Palestinian State in the West Bank and Gaza alongsie Israel, and support those in the Palestinian community who share the same dream.
But it is difficult.
Merely demonstrating support of those seeking peace with Israel can lead to their rejection by Palestinians; while opposition to those who publically state they seek the extermination of Israel (Hamas, Iran, Hizbollah) leads to their support by Palestinians.
Do Palestinians, and Muslims in general, want peace with Israel?
Or do they seek her destruction?
This uncertainty is what plagues the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (and Jewish-Muslim relations, and Muslim-West relations) and inhibits constructive results, in my humble opinion.

Respectfully,
History

Ah..

I think Palestinians would rather get beck to their lives and live in peace, but not in camps and cut off and carved up like they are now.

I hope that it hasnt boiled down to Muslim-Jewish relations. I think its an Israeli Palestinian issue. This crisis has no religious grounds from a Muslim perspective, its a political struggle.

[Jim]

Ok, I can see where that comes from. But I must also think they are no better than the rest of us. Even the Quran states that. At least from what I've been reading so forgive me if I am off track

The Prophet himself said in his last sermon:

All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over a black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly. Do not, therefore, do injustice to yourselves.

http://islamfactor.org/index.php?showtopic=60

[Geshtinnanna]

Exactly. And since I am new to reading the Quran (only on surah 6) I don't want to go quoting. Though even this early in I get that sense we, as in Christians, Jews and others are all God's creation equally.

[History]

Dear Jim,
Thank you for your post.
And Good Shabbos.

Thank you History.

Thought the Torah was the first five books of Moses.

It is.
And it is more.

"Torah" means "Teaching."
It is the name give to the Chumash (Penatateuch) which is the first of the three parts of the TaNaKh (Hebrew Scripture).
The term "Torah" is also used to refer to the TaNaKh.
It is also used to refer to both the Written(Torah/Tanakh) and the Oral Torah(Talmud).
And it is even used to refer to all Hebrew learning.

Judges, Jeremiah, etc are not Torah. No one knows the writer of the Book of Judges. Jeremiah was killed by the early Hebrews and now we find a book ascribed to his name added to the Jewish Scriptures 200 years CE during the Rabbinical compilation of the Jewish Tanakh.

The book of Prophets (Nevi'im) and the Writings (Ketuv'im) are the secong and third sections of the TaNaKh (Hebrew Scripture).
They are not the 5 Books of Moses, but they are still "Torah."

If you wish to rely only on factual evidence, no one knows who transcribed/wrote the 5 Books of Moses. And the fifth book, Devarim (Deuteronomy), was not known to exist until purportedly discovered by the Prophet Ezra after the return from Babylonian Exile. [For more on scholarly assumptions of authorship of Hebrew, and Christian, Scripture you could see, for example, http://lost-history.com/authors.php ]

However, we've been discussing Scripture in terms of Jewish beliefs not in terms of modern deconstructive conjecture.
By tradition and faith, Judaism ascribes the authorship of Torah to Moses, as G-d's direct Word.
Similarly, we recognize the Book of the Prophets as being G-d's Word through His Agents.
And the Writings as inspired by G-d.

Im talking torah here, the very basic.

You can, if you like.
It would be un-Jewish, though.
Like discussing a glass of milk without the milk.
Torah, and Nevi'im, etc. are all part and parcel of the Hebrew knowledge of G-d's Word in Hebrew Scripture.
But...as you like...

To answer your post will take pages of content.

Then you should.
The following is insufficient, and all does not support your statement. And I'll explain why (see below).

I will just put this single set of passages out there to prove the point about the termination of the Covenant made with Moses for disobedience.

Deuteronomy 28

15 However, if you do not obey the LORD your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come upon you and overtake you:

.....

58 If you do not carefully follow all the words of this law, which are written in this book, and do not revere this glorious and awesome name��"the LORD your God- 59 the LORD will send fearful plagues on you and your descendants, harsh and prolonged disasters, and severe and lingering illnesses. 60 He will bring upon you all the diseases of Egypt that you dreaded, and they will cling to you. 61 The LORD will also bring on you every kind of sickness and disaster not recorded in this Book of the Law, until you are destroyed. 62 You who were as numerous as the stars in the sky will be left but few in number, because you did not obey the LORD your God. 63 Just as it pleased the LORD to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you. You will be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess.

64 Then the LORD will scatter you among all nations, from one end of the earth to the other. There you will worship other gods��"gods of wood and stone, which neither you nor your fathers have known. 65 Among those nations you will find no repose, no resting place for the sole of your foot. There the LORD will give you an anxious mind, eyes weary with longing, and a despairing heart. 66 You will live in constant suspense, filled with dread both night and day, never sure of your life. 67 In the morning you will say, "If only it were evening!" and in the evening, "If only it were morning!"-because of the terror that will fill your hearts and the sights that your eyes will see. 68 The LORD will send you back in ships to Egypt on a journey I said you should never make again. There you will offer yourselves for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but no one will buy you.

And thus Israel was in fact destroyed by the Babylonian invasion in the manner described by these verses.

First, there is nothing here that states G-d will "terminate the Covenant" with Israel.
Only that Israel will be punished for not striving diligently to follow His Teachings (for ethical human behavior).

Second, in regard to the conquest of Judah by Nebechudnezzar of Babylon, and the scattering/exile of the Jews to Babylon, for her disobedience; G-d subsequently sends Cyrus the Persian (he is even called a "moshiach" in Isaiah! [44:28]) to destroy Babylon for its mistreatment of Israel, and Israel is returned by G-d to Jerusalem and the Holy Temple is rebuilt.
The length of the Babylonian Exile? 48 years.

Third, if you wish to be a Torah purist (i.e. skeptical of anything post Babylonian Exile), then you need exclude Devarim (Deuteronomy), for it was unknown until after the return of Israel from Babylon. [Not that this matters in this instance].

Fourth, even in merely the 5 Books of Moses (Torah), to which you wish to limit discussion, G-d states (yet again, but I'll include their common Book names this time):

וַהֲקִמֹתִי אֶת-בְּרִיתִי בֵּינִי וּבֵינֶךָ, וּבֵין זַרְעֲךָ אַחֲרֶיךָ לְדֹרֹתָם--לִבְרִית עוֹלָם: לִהְיוֹת לְךָ לֵאלֹהִים, וּלְזַרְעֲךָ אַחֲרֶיךָ.
וְנָתַתִּי לְךָ וּלְזַרְעֲךָ אַחֲרֶיךָ אֵת אֶרֶץ מְגֻרֶיךָ, אֵת כָּל-אֶרֶץ כְּנַעַן, לַאֲחֻזַּת, עוֹלָם; וְהָיִיתִי לָהֶם, לֵאלֹהִים.
And I will establish My covenant between Me and thee and thy seed after thee throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee and to thy seed after thee. And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land of thy sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.'
--Beresheis (Genesis) 17:7-8

לֹא אִישׁ אֵל וִיכַזֵּב, וּבֶן-אָדָם וְיִתְנֶחָם; הַהוּא אָמַר וְלֹא יַעֲשֶׂה, וְדִבֶּר וְלֹא יְקִימֶנָּה.
God is not a man, that He should lie; neither the son of man, that He should repent: when He hath said, will He not do it? or when He hath spoken, will He not make it good?
--Bamidbar (Numbers) 23:18.

Thus, within Torah, we learn that G-d's Word, His Covenant, His Promise is Eternal.
Unlike Man, what "He hath spoken", He makes good.
That the "land of Canaan" is "an everlasting possession" of the Children of Israel, and the covenant is "an everlasting covenant."
And, as you shared, even when dispossed of the land, even when punished by G-d for failing to strive to follow His Teachings as diligently as Israel can, the covenant remaims unbroken, and He leads Israel repeatedly back to the Land he decreed for them as an everlasting possession.
Just as Mohammed noted as well:

"O my people, enter the holy land that GOD has decreed for you, and do not rebel, lest you become losers."--Quran, 5:21

Many blessings upon you all this Shabbos.

Respectfully,
History

[History]

The Prophet himself said in his last sermon:

All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over a black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly. Do not, therefore, do injustice to yourselves.

http://islamfactor.org/index.php?showtopic=60

Similarly, the Talmud states:

"For this reason Adam was created [i.e. humanity started from a single individual]: to teach you that destroying a single life is to destroy a whole world, even as to save a single life is to save a whole world. And for the sake of the peace of creation, so that no one could say to another 'My ancestor was greater than yours." And so that heretics cannot say, 'There are many powers in heaven.'
And to proclaim the greatness of the Holy Blessed One, for when a person makes many coins with one mold, they all look alike; but the Holy One stamps every human being with the mold of the first Adam, and none resembles the other. For this reason, each and every person must declare, 'For my sake the world was created.'"
--Mishnah, Talmud, Sanhedrin 4:5

Respectfully,
History

This post has been edited by History: Apr 25 2008, 08:36 PM