[MagnaCarta]

From the other thread, there was a deeply offensive misrepresentation of Jesus and his teachings on Divorce made:

look jesus outright condemned divorce in the new testament and for nearly 2,000 years until maybe 40 years ago (annulments are now a joke and nothing more than catholic divorce) your catholic church outright forbade it. a man can come home and find 10 of his co-workers pulling a train on his wife and he was not free to divorce her, a woman can get beaten everyday by her alcoholic gambling adicted husband and not be free to leave and find someone who isn't a sociopath or lunatic for about 1,960 years simply because of TWO verses uttered by jesus.

None of this is true. To begin with Jesus said that adultery was a reason for divorce. So if a man comes home to find his wife committing to adultery then divorce is allowed. Secondly, divorce is allowed for other abuses, but the nugget to this particular teaching is to bring a higher understanding of the sacred nature of our sexual union, in that once we are joined in this matter, it doesn't ever end, it is holy, it is permanent. So, you may divorce according to the laws of man, get a writ that says you no longer are bound to each other on earth, but if you engage in sexual relations with another human being you are in fact committing adultery. The understanding of what adultery is, is defined by Jesus in this teaching. It is the corruption of the sacred union created by God, that involves only one man and one woman for life. Once that is done, it can not be undone, it is spiritual in nature, a combining of the eternal souls of these two humans, not simply a physical act of joining. So, divorce can save one from an abusive spouse, but if you divorce then you must remain chaste. And this is very difficult of course, but Jesus also taught that it was the higher way. It is possible to put away your physical lust and devote your life energy, your spiritual focus and your works to serving God and not to the traditional path of being a sexual partner with a marital mate in this life and the rewards are great for such a path. You will be in greater communion with God in doing so, for you will not be giving your energy to a husband/wife, but to God and in that you will be serving a life that is devoted to Him and not to your spouse.

[typicaldude]

divorce is 100% not allowed in any case according to the catholic church, if your spouse is a pedophile, rapist, murderer, insane, cheat, drunk etc... not allowed and this black/white reading of the letter of the law comes from two statements amde by Jesus showing how powerful Jesus teachings were according the the historical catholic church. remember much of history there was just the catholic church so when i referenced that comparison i was addressing it directly to a catholic.

my point was that if divorce can be forbidden until about 40 years ago based on two statements by Jesus, imagine what could've been avoided had Jesus stated a condemnation on slavery which he never did.

[aladdin]

my point was that if divorce can be forbidden until about 40 years ago based on two statements by Jesus, imagine what could've been avoided had Jesus stated a condemnation on slavery which he never did.

Are you trying to hijack the thread again!

Discussing slavery?

This thread is not about slavery, it is about annulment of marriage!

Careful, Magna will scream murder and she will split the thread again, so it doesn't make any sense at all!

Be careful brother!

You are at a Muslim site!

This post has been edited by aladdin: 15 May 2009 - 08:59 AM

[typicaldude]

she cross posted me from another topic about slavery, she's quoting me out of context, im puting my original statement back into its proper context so people can understand properly. i've already said all i care to anyway i won't be posting in this thread anymore.

[aladdin]

<deleted>

This post has been edited by Honu: 15 May 2009 - 11:57 AM
Reason for edit: Off Topic

[Masood]

divorce is 100% not allowed in any case according to the catholic church, if your spouse is a pedophile, rapist, murderer, insane, cheat, drunk etc... not allowed and this black/white reading of the letter of the law comes from two statements amde by Jesus showing how powerful Jesus teachings were according the the historical catholic church. remember much of history there was just the catholic church so when i referenced that comparison i was addressing it directly to a catholic.

Divorce is not recognized in our Church. But, as you know, annulment is an option in certain cases.

my point was that if divorce can be forbidden until about 40 years ago based on two statements by Jesus, imagine what could've been avoided had Jesus stated a condemnation on slavery which he never did.

Again, this did not change 40 years ago. Divorce is still not an option recognized by the Church.

But annulment is possible, and that did not start 40 years ago either. That has always been an option to address marriages that are invalid either because the one party was grossly misled, or the marriage wasn't voluntary, or the couple were not of sound minds, or other similar reasons.

This post has been edited by Masood: 15 May 2009 - 09:22 AM

[aladdin]

Divorce is not recognized in our Church. But, as you know, annulment is an option in certain cases.

Again, this did not change 40 years ago. Divorce is still not an option recognized by the Church.

But annulment is possible, and that did not start 40 years ago either. That has always been an option to address marriages that are invalid either because the one party was grossly misled, or the marriage wasn't voluntary, or the couple were not of sound minds, or other similar reasons.

So, what are we discussing now!

Your phone, cell, GSM, divorce, slavery....

Help me out brother Masood?

I am dazed and confused!

[Masood]

So, what are we discussing now!

Your phone, cell, GSM, divorce, slavery....

Help me out brother Masood?

I am dazed and confused!

We're discussing the topic of this thread, which is divorce.

[Firedragon]

Hi. There is an exploration of what bible dictates on the subject of divorce.

http://www.gotquestions.org/divorce-remarriage.html

Its Good.

[MagnaCarta]

typicaldude you told a typical lie about what Jesus taught. You said that divorce was forbidden period and that a man could come home and find his wife in an act of adultery but there would be no recourse. This is what I corrected. It was a false statement and yes it was from another thread, so I started this one. That is how it is done...instead of going off topic, start a new thread if you want to intro something into a conversation.

Proof that you were wrong:

Matthew 19
3 Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?"
4 "Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator `made them male and female,'
5 and said, `For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'?
6 So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."
7 "Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?"
8 Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.
9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."

Proof is also there that Jesus was teaching us that the sexual union between a man and a woman is more than just a physical act, and that even if you get a divorce decree, but take another wife or husband, which means having sex with them (I have always stated that marriage in Gods eyes begins with this one act and not with our manmade ceremonies), you have committed adultery because what is accomplished in our sexual union is not undone with our decrees of divorce.

Mark 10
2 Some Pharisees came and tested him by asking, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?"
3 "What did Moses command you?" he replied.
4 They said, "Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce and send her away."
5 "It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law," Jesus replied.
6 "But at the beginning of creation God `made them male and female.'
7 `For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife,
8 and the two will become one flesh.' So they are no longer two, but one.
9 Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."
10 When they were in the house again, the disciples asked Jesus about this.
11 He answered, "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her.
12 And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery."

So divorce per se is not the problem if the individual never remarries. It is remarriage that brings one to adultery. By taking the wholeness of his teaching into consideration one can see that Jesus was teaching about the permanence of our first sexual union, that once it is done it can not be undone and any additional sexual union after that constitutes adultery because you have brought another person into your being from a soul level. This is also where I claim that polgamy is not God's will, logic follows that taking two wives at once is the same as one after the other and it is adultery as Jesus has defined it.

Jesus is defining adultery and the true nature of our spiritual unions much more than he is defining worldly views of divorce. He is stating that mankind was 'allowed' divorce because of the hardness of their hearts, for men were vile to women they wanted to just throw away so they could take another 'better' one in Moses time. Jesus has come with a higher law and a higher understanding,since he is giving God's Word and its a greater understanding than that of men who do not know the reality of their sexual unions from God's perspective.

[MagnaCarta]

Hi. There is an exploration of what bible dictates on the subject of divorce.

http://www.gotquestions.org/divorce-remarriage.html

Its Good.

Yes it is good. The only thing I completely disagree with in this is the interpretation that says marital unfaithfulness is thought to be only during the betrothal time. Simply because the exception of this is supported by the fact that Jesus is teaching what adultery really is. That the one who sinned and broke the marriage vows is not allowed to remarry, but the one who was sinned against is, is a special grace from God on this matter. It states that the one who divorces commits adultery when they remarry and the one who commits adultery while married is in effect creating a divorce. They are not free from the sin of adultery in any case, the one who says they want a divorce is the one destroying the sacred bond.

And finally, while the Catholic church does have its own understanding of this, it is important to remember that they do not represent all of Christianity. What this thread is in the Christian section and it is what Jesus taught, according to the bible, on the subject, not what any particular church holds in its doctrine.

And in all things, what we think is 'condemned' completely is not for us to judge. Jesus was giving a higher insight into holding our marriages, by virtue of the sexual union that they represent, sacred. If someone is being violently abused that is an offense against the bond and divorce is between them and God. Not us.

I know plenty of women who never wanted to marry again after such a horrible experience. By turning to Christ and receiving the healing of God, they can overcome this. Often those who jump right in with someone else make the same mistake or are bound with wounds from the past that enter into their new marriage.

As with all of God's teachings, they are for our benefit to keep, given with love and the highest wisdom of what is best for us. If we choose to 'break' them then what we receive is of our choosing, in this life. As for condemnation in the next, I leave that to God and God alone, for God's knowledge love and mercy is far greater than anything humans can fathom.

This post has been edited by MagnaCarta: 16 May 2009 - 06:22 AM

[MagnaCarta]

she cross posted me from another topic about slavery, she's quoting me out of context, im puting my original statement back into its proper context so people can understand properly. i've already said all i care to anyway i won't be posting in this thread anymore.

\

Actually in your post over there you claimed Jesus said what Jesus didn't say. So I started this thread to clarify it.

jesus outright condemned divorce

I clarified here that Jesus allowed divorce in cases of adultery and gave a new topic its start...as it should be so we don't go OT.

[typicaldude]

typicaldude you told a typical lie about what Jesus taught. You said that divorce was forbidden period and that a man could come home and find his wife in an act of adultery but there would be no recourse. This is what I corrected. It was a false statement

you are either purposely leaving out the fact that i referenced the catholic church several times or just missing it, i'll give you the benefit of the doubt and not assume you're being dishonest. i've said multiple times the catholic church in that discussion, which WAS christianity for basically 1,500 years. i was addressing a catholic, and i referenced the catholic church. why you're leaving that out and accusing me of lying i don't know but i hope you will settle down and re-read the posts and come back and admit your misunderstanding. what your protestant teachers preach i have no idea, there's as many teachings in protestantism as there are denominations i would never try to reference protestant teachings in a discussion about the christian church as there aren't enough hours in the day even if lived 500 years. to cover even 1/100th of them..

the fact is the catholic church reads jesus words as NOT ever allowing divorce ever, that is the TRUTH why you call it a lie i don't know, (you seem pretty quick to throw that around not very "christlike" of you frankly). I pointed this out to show how powerful the church was to enforce teachings and had they taught against slavery it wouldn't have existed or barely existed in the ancient chrsitian world. for some reason you want a fight and to throw insults i don't care to do that i'm not 12, nor do i have the energy or care to read your walls text, good day.

[Jim]

The only case in which Jesus (pbuh) himself allowed divorce, according to the Scripture) is in the case of adultery.

[MagnaCarta]

The only case in which Jesus (pbuh) himself allowed divorce, according to the Scripture) is in the case of adultery.

Yes, but one can also note that he specifically stated that the one who divorces causes the other to commit adultery and so there is an emphasis in that sense. When one is being divorced they are not choosing, it is not their will but their partners will that is bringing a break in the sacred bond brought in their marriage union. I think this points to the accountability element in divorce and was the basis of many laws that predated the no fault laws that we use today in our culture.

It is the man who causes his wife to commit adultery by divorcing her, when she remarries and joins with another. It is the woman who causes her husband to commit adultery by divorcing him when he remarries with another. And again, this reveals that these teachings are actually more valid in use as a definition of the true nature of our sexual union, which is sacred, permanent and changes us on a soul level, that once they are created they are not undone. So defiling this with divorce is done with the adding in of another person, breaking what God had originally created in one man and one woman for life.

This is also the basis of the rejection of polygamy of any sort as God's divine will for humanity, on the same principle understanding of what Jesus was revealing to us about our sexual bond through the sacred union known as 'marriage' of our souls through our sexuality.

[MagnaCarta]

you are either purposely leaving out the fact that i referenced the catholic church several times or just missing it, i'll give you the benefit of the doubt and not assume you're being dishonest. i've said multiple times the catholic church in that discussion, which WAS christianity for basically 1,500 years. i was addressing a catholic, and i referenced the catholic church. why you're leaving that out and accusing me of lying i don't know but i hope you will settle down and re-read the posts and come back and admit your misunderstanding. what your protestant teachers preach i have no idea, there's as many teachings in protestantism as there are denominations i would never try to reference protestant teachings in a discussion about the christian church as there aren't enough hours in the day even if lived 500 years. to cover even 1/100th of them..

the fact is the catholic church reads jesus words as NOT ever allowing divorce ever, that is the TRUTH why you call it a lie i don't know, (you seem pretty quick to throw that around not very "christlike" of you frankly). I pointed this out to show how powerful the church was to enforce teachings and had they taught against slavery it wouldn't have existed or barely existed in the ancient chrsitian world. for some reason you want a fight and to throw insults i don't care to do that i'm not 12, nor do i have the energy or care to read your walls text, good day.

Wading through all the emotionalism in your post... I do not see where I have thrown insults or asked for a fight in this thread or in my OP. I wasn't merely pointing out an errant claim and addressing the claim, not you, here.

Let me clarify. You stated that Jesus taught something and then you said that the Catholic Church had rules based on what Jesus taught. My goal was to clarify for others what Jesus actually taught, to correct the statement for the benefit of others who do not know what Jesus actually stated in scripture.

I am sorry you took my attempt to correct misunderstanding of Jesus statements that you said were responsible for the doctrine of the Catholic Church ("just because of what Jesus said") as a personal affront upon you. I was defending the Word that Jesus actually taught over a false representation of it. I don't have 'protestant teachers', I have my faith, the scriptures and the Holy Spirit to guide my understanding of what Jesus taught. This thread is not the other thread. The purpose of this thread is defined. It is not even about you personally, it is about the misleading statement that there was nothing that Jesus said was a reason for divorce and then to discuss the topic further in order to not dismantle the one on slavery.

This post has been edited by MagnaCarta: 16 May 2009 - 10:00 AM

[MagnaCarta]

Bottom line, the statement that men coming home to find their wives committing adultery was not even cause enought to allow a divorce "just because of what Jesus said" is what I addressed by scripture in this thread. Twisting and turning it to say I am arguing about the Catholic Church when I am not, but I am clarifying what Jesus actually did teach with scripture which was misrepresented by claiming it was because of HIM that these rules exist (and if he had said anything to forbid slavery like he did this...the assumption there also that he forbid divorce when he allowed it in cases of adultery...) is just another OT rant on yet another thread.

[typicaldude]

to YOU jesus allowed divorce in the case of adultery, to the historical chrisitian church, the catholic church, which absolutely forbade divorce based on the teachings of jesus, that is what you're not getting. i was in the middle of a discussion with a CATHOLIC, referencing the historical CATHOLIC Church before you interjected calling people liars, slicing my posts apart and quoting them out of context... this is why at most boards cross posting like what you did is against the rules because you get the nonsense of this thread.

the catholic church teaches no divorce (although they have sidestepped the rules os now an annulment is easily gotten for any reason and nothing more than a divorce). you need to be able to read in context, you don't seem to be able to do that. and in the other thread it WAS on topic, you can use other situations to support yoru argument without going off topic.

what your protestant preachers teach you i have no idea, there are literally 30,000 different protestant denominations which teach everything from polygamy, inter-family relations, jesus wasn't divine, he was divine, that god hates the US because of homosexuals, pre-trib post trib rapture, millenialism, we become god's of our own universes, the world is going to end in 1842, the world is going to end 1890 something and pretty much every decade thereafter, i can go on and on, therefore while i was discussing the issue with a CATHOLIC i was referencing the historical churches teaching and influence amongst early civilization, not what your particular reading of the bible tells you because anyone can spin the bible into anything they want...

[MagnaCarta]

to YOU jesus allowed divorce in the case of adultery, to the historical chrisitian church, the catholic church, which absolutely forbade divorce based on the teachings of jesus, that is what you're not getting. i was in the middle of a discussion with a CATHOLIC, referencing the historical CATHOLIC Church before you interjected calling people liars, slicing my posts apart and quoting them out of context... this is why at most boards cross posting like what you did is against the rules because you get the nonsense of this thread.

the catholic church teaches no divorce (although they have sidestepped the rules os now an annulment is easily gotten for any reason and nothing more than a divorce). you need to be able to read in context, you don't seem to be able to do that. and in the other thread it WAS on topic, you can use other situations to support yoru argument without going off topic.

what your protestant preachers teach you i have no idea, there are literally 30,000 different protestant denominations which teach everything from polygamy, inter-family relations, jesus wasn't divine, he was divine, that god hates the US because of homosexuals, pre-trib post trib rapture, millenialism, we become god's of our own universes, the world is going to end in 1842, the world is going to end 1890 something and pretty much every decade thereafter, i can go on and on, therefore while i was discussing the issue with a CATHOLIC i was referencing the historical churches teaching and influence amongst early civilization, not what your particular reading of the bible tells you because anyone can spin the bible into anything they want...

I started this thread to clarify what Jesus actually said which is recorded in the scripture. That you were going off topic talking to a Catholic about the Catholic Church's position on divorce is no concern, I started a thread to clarify for others what Jesus specifically said, quoted the scriptures for reference. The title of this thread is NOT the Catholic Church and Divorce, it is JESUS and divorce. In it you are free to discuss how the Catholic Church either is in line with or deviates from this, but keep it on the topic of what Jesus himself actually said. You are going on and on...

I am not spinning anything, the scriptures are very clear to understand and that is why I started this thread.

You can say that the Catholic Church ruled NO divorce at all based on the teachings of Jesus but then you must totally ignore the actual scriptural reference I gave that shows the actual teachings of Jesus. I disagree that they are 'based' on his teachings when he clearly stated divorce was allowed in cases of adultery. This is a very clear point, one you said that the Church did not allow. The Catholic Church is not Jesus. I am not here to represent their view or how they came to it. Perhaps one of our Catholic members would like to take on the doctrinal difference between the Catholic Church and scripture which clearly states that Jesus taught in cases of adultery divorce is allowed.

But I am not 'making up' what Jesus said, which is duly recorded in scripture. And that was the reason for the thread, to clarify that what HE said and not what 'religion' decided to do with it.

This thread is not about YOU. It is about what Jesus taught on divorce. Your quote pointed to an error, whether it is the Catholic church error or your own doesn't matter. YOU are not the topic and neither is the Catholic Church. Jesus and his Word on divorce is.

This post has been edited by MagnaCarta: 16 May 2009 - 11:45 AM

[MagnaCarta]

Per scripture:

Matthew 19:9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."

Thus the purpose of this thread, to clarify what Jesus actually said.