'anti-semitism' In Catholicism, Bishop Richard Williamson Options

[Murteza]

Bishop minces no words on Holocaust

A Catholic priest, who sparked Jewish fury by reopening debate on the Holocaust, takes a swipe at the misuse of the label 'anti-Semitic'.

British Bishop Richard Williamson recently asserted that he would perform in-depth research and explore the historical evidence surrounding the Holocaust -- in order to substantiate his past claims that Nazis did not use gas chambers to murder Jews during World War Two.

Williamson, who was declared persona non grata by the Vatican in 1988, said he is firmly convinced of the accuracy of his statements, affirming that his arguments stem largely from historical evidence and years of comprehensive research.

"I must now review the historical evidence once again. I said the same thing in my interview with Swedish television: Historical evidence is at issue, not emotions. And if I find this evidence, I will correct myself. But that will take time," he said.

In an interview with Swedish television in January, Williamson denied the existence of Nazi gas chambers, claiming that only 300,000 Jews perished in the Nazi concentration camps -- rather than the 6 million figure that is widely disseminated.

His January remarks raised hackles in the Jewish community, prompting Pope Benedict XVI to urge the bishop to rectify his controversial views.

Williamson responded that he would not let emotions get in the way of research and is determined to stick to his comments until he fully "examines the evidence" of the Nazi Holocaust.

"If I realize that I have made an error, I will apologize. I ask every human being to believe me when I say that I did not deliberately say anything untrue. I was convinced that my comments were accurate, based on my research in the 1980s. Now I must review everything again and look at the evidence," he said.

The recently-rehabilitated priest insisted that he should not be labeled as anti-Semitic for his views.

"Anti-Semitism means many things today, for instance, when one criticizes the Israeli actions in the Gaza Strip. The Church has always understood the definition of anti-Semitism to be the rejection of Jews because of their Jewish roots. This is condemned by the Church," he explained.

Williamson said while he has no plans to visit Israel, he hopes the Holy See would consider paying a visit to Gaza, which was recently subject to a devastating three-week-long Zionist assault.

http://www.presstv.com/detail.aspx?id=8574...ionid=351020606

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what about catholic member here who always accuse someone antisemite but dont realize the catholic priest questioning holocaust

This post has been edited by Murteza: Feb 15 2009, 03:36 AM

[Billy]

Sounds to me like he's firmly convinced that he's not sure!

[shamsuddin wahee...]

Salaam all,

I have never understood the obsession with 'orthodoxy' when it comes to the Holocaust. The Priest disputes the numbers and methods, yet that is considered 'anti-semitic', and is actually a crime in many countries? What an amazing situation!

What about the slave trade, how many millions and billions of people were kidnapped from Africa and taken to North America? How many died on the way? Yet, this is never discussed, and is treated as if it was almost a good thing!

What about what is happening now in many places, in Darfur, Kashmir, in Gaza?

[Masood]

what about catholic member here who always accuse someone antisemite but dont realize the catholic priest questioning holocaust

I'm not sure to whom you are referring, but I'll just address it from my perspective as a Catholic. I think this Bishop is simply wrong on his facts. And obviously the Vatican thinks he is wrong as well. And I'm sure most Catholic laity would agree that he is wrong.

So I guess I don't understand your point?

[MagnaCarta]

Salaam all,

I have never understood the obsession with 'orthodoxy' when it comes to the Holocaust. The Priest disputes the numbers and methods, yet that is considered 'anti-semitic', and is actually a crime in many countries? What an amazing situation!

What about the slave trade, how many millions and billions of people were kidnapped from Africa and taken to North America? How many died on the way? Yet, this is never discussed, and is treated as if it was almost a good thing!

What about what is happening now in many places, in Darfur, Kashmir, in Gaza?

Maybe where you are at/from this wasn't ever discussed but not where I am at/from.

Human atrocities no know bounds, but humans sure do like to try to categorize them and label them to the inth degree while doing nothing to prevent them or understand the underlying cause for them.

As for the slave trade, tell me if you have pinpointed the beginning and end of this horrible aspect of our human history, which has existed for a very very long time and is not specific or restricted to one situation, place or time. It is still going on TODAY, yes, it is not history and most certainly is not something that was restricted to North America. The slaves themselves were captured by warring tribes in Africa who sold out there 'captives' for their own gain. Who was the 'perpetrator' then, the ones who believed that after a war all the humans were not more valuable than domestic beasts of burden to be made into captive slaves or the ones who said, hey, we could use some of that human slave labor to make our lives easier? Both sides were complacent in the destructive acts that enslaved human lives like animals.

This post has been edited by MagnaCarta: Feb 15 2009, 10:03 AM

[LadyGarnetRose]

That bishop might find himself more than just persona non grata, he might find himself excommunicated by Benedict.

Remember something Benedict REALLY knows what happened there.

[LtTony]

http://www.presstv.com/detail.aspx?id=8574...ionid=351020606

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what about catholic member here who always accuse someone antisemite but dont realize the catholic priest questioning holocaust

History tells us some of the biggest bigots in history have, sadly, been catholic. Where has it been indicated we don't realize this?

Your posts, meanwhile, tell us a lot about you.

[LtTony]

Salaam all,

I have never understood the obsession with 'orthodoxy' when it comes to the Holocaust. The Priest disputes the numbers and methods, yet that is considered 'anti-semitic', and is actually a crime in many countries? What an amazing situation!

What about the slave trade, how many millions and billions of people were kidnapped from Africa and taken to North America? How many died on the way? Yet, this is never discussed, and is treated as if it was almost a good thing!

What about what is happening now in many places, in Darfur, Kashmir, in Gaza?

One, you're flat wrong when you say it is a "crime in many countries". It is exactly two.

"obsession with orthodoxy"??? You mean the facts? The truth? Yeah, I guess a number of us are obsessed with that.

He "disputes numbers and methods," and you wonder why he is considered anti-semtic. He said he needs to "look into it." That's a stall tactic. It's been "looked into." Probably more than any other event in history.
Williamson is apparently of the school that wants to minimize the Holocaust, by planting doubt of the accuracy of established facts. They believe it will give them some political leverage. They are not in search of any truth.

Although I personally believe in the addage "if it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck...", the pope has not called Williamson anti-semite, though he likely is. The pope, to his credit, has merely called out Williamson on this.

There's more to Williamson than meets the eye. He's already been excommunicated on another matter. I suggest some rearch before you post again.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29183602/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Williamson_(bishop)

http://fringewatcher.blogspot.com/2006/01/...williamson.html

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith...e_larger_i.html

[shamsuddin wahee...]

It seems my point has been lost on many of the posters.

The Priest disputes the way and the numbers of people killed. That does not negate mass murder [or whatever you wish to call it] at the hands of the Nazis. Nor does it legitimize in any way the Nazi 'final solution'.

Look, a person can go to jail for disputing the details or outright denying it happened. That's the case in Germany. A person, especially in academia, can loose their job for disputing it.

In essence, it's become a thought crime punishable by law!


My question was "what about the slave trade? How many perished on the journey alone? How many were forcibly divorced from their native languages, religions and families in North America? Why is it there is no moral outrage about that?

[MagnaCarta]

My question was "what about the slave trade? How many perished on the journey alone? How many were forcibly divorced from their native languages, religions and families in North America? Why is it there is no moral outrage about that?

You are assuming there is no moral outrage. You are assuming that this has not been studied and that is has not been taught to generations of Americans. But your assumptions are only assumptions. Do you need endless outrage and protests in the streets for til the end of time to believe that Americans (and others in the world) totally reject this TODAY and find it morally and ethically corrupt as a practice? You seem to be making the statement that we have NO qualms about slavery and what it did to those who were enslaved AND you also seem to negate that this was not just an American thing, but the roots go far beyond America and it's use of slaves in its formative years. And you deny the culpability of those who were enslaving men for sale to the European's (and others) and Americans.

This was not one group wanting to wipe out another. It was a massive human scandal that covered continents with culpability spread amongst many different groups. Even the belief that human beings can be enslaved and used like beasts of burdens, is at the root of this abuse of humanity.

That is why your point is lost on this topic. It is not an equal comparison.

[spike]

It seems my point has been lost on many of the posters.

The Priest disputes the way and the numbers of people killed. That does not negate mass murder [or whatever you wish to call it] at the hands of the Nazis. Nor does it legitimize in any way the Nazi 'final solution'. There is much more to this priest's protestations than meets the eye or is being played up in media currently. He's not even a legitimate bishop.

Look, a person can go to jail for disputing the details or outright denying it happened. That's the case in Germany. A person, especially in academia, can loose their job for disputing it. That's a law in Germany and Austria at the behest of their government for good reason.

In essence, it's become a thought crime punishable by law! Do you even know the laws of those two countries re Holocaust denial? It's more involved than 'thought crime'.


My question was "what about the slave trade? How many perished on the journey alone? How many were forcibly divorced from their native languages, religions and families in North America? Why is it there is no moral outrage about that?

Per the rules of this forum, start a new thread for this decidedly different and new topic. Then you might get some feedback.

[LtTony]

Your post hasn't been lost on anyone, waheed. I see you working; I've been on muslim boards long enough**. Plus, I could say the same thing about you regarding my post.

"One, you're flat wrong when you say it is a "crime in many countries". It is exactly two." This, IMO, demonstrates you aren't totally familiar with the facts.

"obsession with orthodoxy"??? You mean the facts? The truth? Yeah, I guess a number of us are obsessed with that. I asked what you mean by orthodoxy. Making some assumptions, I answered. We want facts. We think we have them. Contrarians should produce their info before saying the accepted figures are incorrect. That's what Williamson did. The Pope called him out on it, now the poser bishop is daying he'll "look into it."
Memo to Willie: best to "look into it" before you open your bigoted yapper. (see countries that outlaw Holocausr denial)

He "disputes numbers and methods," and you wonder why he is considered anti-semtic. He said he needs to "look into it." That's a stall tactic. It's been "looked into." Probably more than any other event in history.


**Williamson is apparently of the school that wants to minimize the Holocaust, by planting doubt of the accuracy of established facts. They believe it will give them some political leverage. They are not in search of any truth.

Although I personally believe in the addage "if it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck...", the pope has not called Williamson anti-semite, though he likely is. The pope, to his credit, has merely called out Williamson on this.

There's more to Williamson than meets the eye. He's already been excommunicated on another matter. I suggest some rearch before you post again.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29183602/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Williamson_(bishop)

http://fringewatcher.blogspot.com/2006/01/...williamson.html

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith...e_larger_i.html


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I would be glad to answer any questions you may have. Keep'em simple, direct, a couple at a time.

[shamsuddin wahee...]

I never said I know everything about the dynamics in Europe. How about this one, a diplomat arrested in the UK for making emotional comments in a gym when Israel was attacking Gaza.http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1139249/High-ranking-Foreign-Office-diplomat-arrested-anti-Semitic-gym-tirade.html

Two nations or two hundred, the point is still valid. Anything related to the holocaust, Israel or the Jewish people is sacrosanct, cannot be touched or looked at with scrutiny, even in the mildest manner, without a storm coming afterwards!

If holocaust denial or disputing its details is more than a thought crime, please explain how.

You are assuming there is no moral outrage. You are assuming that this has not been studied and that is has not been taught to generations of Americans. But your assumptions are only assumptions. Do you need endless outrage and protests in the streets for til the end of time to believe that Americans (and others in the world) totally reject this TODAY and find it morally and ethically corrupt as a practice? You seem to be making the statement that we have NO qualms about slavery and what it did to those who were enslaved AND you also seem to negate that this was not just an American thing, but the roots go far beyond America and it's use of slaves in its formative years. And you deny the culpability of those who were enslaving men for sale to the European's (and others) and Americans.

This was not one group wanting to wipe out another. It was a massive human scandal that covered continents with culpability spread amongst many different groups. Even the belief that human beings can be enslaved and used like beasts of burdens, is at the root of this abuse of humanity.

That is why your point is lost on this topic. It is not an equal comparison.

While I see your point, my point is that while we see the holocaust continually talked about, other tragedies in human history have been largely ignored. It's not an attempt to play the oppression Olympics, but there has to be some fairness in these sort of discussions.

If my comparison was not equal and fair, then it's the slave trade that would overwhelm the holocaust in terms of numbers, methods and long-term damage.

Regards,
S.Waheed

[spike]

Two nations or two hundred, the point is still valid. Anything related to the holocaust, Israel or the Jewish people is sacrosanct, cannot be touched or looked at with scrutiny, even in the mildest manner, without a storm coming afterwards!

That is an untrue statement. Have you or any of those with whom you discuss/deny the Holocaust been arrested?

If holocaust denial or disputing its details is more than a thought crime, please explain how.

Read verbatim the laws of the two countries that instituted those laws and the history behind them.


While I see your point, my point is that while we see the holocaust continually talked about, Where does this happen and why are you listening?

other tragedies in human history have been largely ignored. Perhaps the survivors of these tragedies could take a lesson from the survivors of the Jews to whom the Holocaust happened and memorialize their own tragedies as we Jews have in thought and deed. It is a great part of our tradition to remember and, now, to Never Forget.

It's not an attempt to play the oppression Olympics, but there has to be some fairness in these sort of discussions. There is when it is facts, not opinion, being discussed. It is the facts that are denied by Holocaust deniers.

If my comparison was not equal and fair, then it's the slave trade that would overwhelm the holocaust in terms of numbers, methods and long-term damage.

Again, slavery is a different topic and requires a different thread which you may start if you so desire.

[MagnaCarta]

While I see your point, my point is that while we see the holocaust continually talked about, other tragedies in human history have been largely ignored. It's not an attempt to play the oppression Olympics, but there has to be some fairness in these sort of discussions.

If my comparison was not equal and fair, then it's the slave trade that would overwhelm the holocaust in terms of numbers, methods and long-term damage.

Regards,
S.Waheed

I do not see it talked about continually but if you are in certain circles or have a specific focus you will hear about it more. Notice how it is PALESTINIAN sympathizers who are calling it forth at the present.

If human beings denied that there was ever a slave trade or said that it was not half as damaging as it was fully and historically recorded to be then perhaps you would find that to be outrageous enough to make it a 'thought crime' seeing that it 'overwhelms' the holocaust in terms of methods and long-term damage. Denial is the issue, not which is worse.

This post has been edited by MagnaCarta: Feb 18 2009, 02:04 PM

[shamsuddin wahee...]

I did not really bring Palestine into the picture, although perhaps it can also be an issue related to this.

"denial is the issue, not which is worse". [Magna]

Well, it seems that the Bishop denied some of the details, but not the actions in themselves. If I say that you went to Chicago by plane, and someone else says by train, in the end that's not the important issue, the point both make is that you went to Chicago.

God-willing, I will respond more later.

Regards,
S.Waheed

[LtTony]

Two nations or two hundred, the point is still valid. Anything related to the holocaust, Israel or the Jewish people is sacrosanct, cannot be touched or looked at with scrutiny, even in the mildest manner, without a storm coming afterwards!

No, the point is not valid. Take spike's advice and look into the details of the two countries.

"Everything." Kind of like your "many countries" claim, where you were absolutely WRONG. Yeah, it's a touchy subject. Bring something valid, and it will likely be respected. But do not bother with "everything" and "many countries" generalizations. They make you look stupid.

Then you mention "even in the mildest manner," right after you linked the story on the Brit diplomat. Sounds like it was not "mild," but a tirade. You think what he did was OK? People can't scream like that about ANYONE in a public area. Especially a public employee. He got as ticket for inciting religious hatred.

Hateful people attempt to rationalize their evil in all sorts of ways.

[MagnaCarta]

I did not really bring Palestine into the picture, although perhaps it can also be an issue related to this.

"denial is the issue, not which is worse". [Magna]

Well, it seems that the Bishop denied some of the details, but not the actions in themselves. If I say that you went to Chicago by plane, and someone else says by train, in the end that's not the important issue, the point both make is that you went to Chicago.

God-willing, I will respond more later.

Regards,
S.Waheed

If people denied some of the details of the slave trade that you personally cited as being worthy of recognition it would be the same thing. It isn't about 'we had slaves' but to what degree and intent this evil harmed the population it effected. Denial of this is where people get in trouble, making light of it, calling other things the same thing...that sort of denial.

[LadyGarnetRose]

I never said I know everything about the dynamics in Europe. How about this one, a diplomat arrested in the UK for making emotional comments in a gym when Israel was attacking Gaza.http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1139249/High-ranking-Foreign-Office-diplomat-arrested-anti-Semitic-gym-tirade.html

Two nations or two hundred, the point is still valid. Anything related to the holocaust, Israel or the Jewish people is sacrosanct, cannot be touched or looked at with scrutiny, even in the mildest manner, without a storm coming afterwards!

Mild?

From the article:

Stunned staff and gym members allegedly heard him shout: 'F**king Israelis, f**king Jews'. It is alleged he also said Israeli soldiers should be 'wiped off the face of the earth'.

His rant reportedly continued even after he was approached by other gym users.


After a complaint was made to police, Mr Laxton was arrested for inciting religious hatred through threatening words and behaviour and bailed until late next month.

[shamsuddin wahee...]

On This and many other forums, we have Non-Muslim members who continually insult Islam, its Prophet, and the Muslims, but does that mean they should be arrested? Does that mean their freedom should be taken away, that they should lose their jobs?

"Look into the details"? Well, I asked for details into how holocaust denial [or denying some detail of it] is not a thought crime, and the answer 'look int the details' is given? Really, nothing is being said by such a comment! I'm afraid that's a dodge from the question.

Everything." Kind of like your "many countries" claim, where you were absolutely WRONG. Yeah, it's a touchy subject. Bring something valid, and it will likely be respected. But do not bother with "everything" and "many countries" generalizations. They make you look stupid.

Your comment here is exactly what I was talking about. Where did I call you any names? When this issue comes up, some people are just ready to hurl insult rather than speaking to the issue.

If people denied some of the details of the slave trade that you personally cited as being worthy of recognition it would be the same thing. It isn't about 'we had slaves' but to what degree and intent this evil harmed the population it effected. Denial of this is where people get in trouble, making light of it, calling other things the same thing...that sort of denial.

I respect this comment, but it seems that once again the point has been lost. The Bible and Qur'an both assert that whosoever kills a single soul, it is as if the whole of mankind has been killed. Regardless of the numbers of people killed, and regardless of how they were killed, it's still a horrible commentary on the Nazis. It's still evil and without justification.

But your latter comments about "calling other things the same thing" seem to suggest that slavery was not as harmful as the holocaust. I am talking about the slave trade that came from Africa to the Americas. I will do as someone else suggested and open a new thread about that.