Hating America Options

[Jim]

One thing that annoys me is the stark nationalism that exists among many Muslims worldwide that is translated and misrepresented to reverts as "Islamic".

I have gone through this process as I became more and more educated by Muslims and Islamic scholars that are from non-western, traditionally "Islamic" countries. Many of these countries being ruled by brutal dictatorships or generally oppressive or unstable regimes, not by Islam.

It is firstly important to realize that no country that exists today is an "Islamic" country, that is, ruled by shariah 100% without diluting it with either former colonial roman laws or made up laws by the dictatorships themselves.

It is my proposal that Islam and Islamic viewpoints do not have to be intrinsically anti-west or anti-American. As an American revert, I see a heck of a lot more good in my country than most others, especially today's countries that are mostly populated with Muslims. In fact, America is still one of the safest places to practice, gather in numbers, and freely speak about any religion, despite the current Bush Administration scrutiny that attempts to curb terrorism by our group.

In my experience, it is the leftist ideologies (bathist, etc) predominant in many Muslim countries (force fed to the population by their dictatorships and kings) that often gets infused with Islamic understanding.

I remember one worldwide well known scholar (who will go nameless), whom I met personally and witnessed speaking in public in the US, state that his culture is superior to western culture because he is from a "Muslim country", a society based on Islamic values. In response, another well known scholar from Canada (who will also go nameless) stated in pubic to him, and I agree, that much of his countries culture, though Islam originated there, is based on unislamic culture predating Islam and still carries many stark unislamic practices. You can still get prostitutes, drugs and many of the things in his Islamic country just as you can get these things in western societies as well. Hence, neither culture is superior except in that which is good. The only difference being that western culture has yet to embrace Islam and much of western society is much safer to practice and preach Islam without being jailed or executed by the dictator that you are preaching against according to your beliefs, case in point the sham trial and execution of Syed Qutb by hanging.

Also, Muslim countries have fought many unjust wars, not just against non-Muslim, but Muslims as well. So, America is not the only country we should look at, but we should also look at ourselves and our countries.

Preaching and railing against the west while using an Islamic platform as a moral high ground is hypocritical and counterproductive. Muslims can ally with the west on common ground as the Prophet (pbuh) did in his time and by living in the west we ally ourselves by default with them. So, we should abide by our civic agreement to live in our western countries peacefully and abide by the laws of the land in exchange for security and freedom. This is what is commonly known by political scholars as a "social contract". The Prophet (pbuh) did this when he sent the sahabbah to flee from oppression to the Abbasid King (who was Christian) in 615 A.D., five years after the beginning of the revelation of the Qur'an and weary of daily torture and hardship. The early Muslims abided by the agreement to live peacefully in a non-Muslim land in exchange for protection. (Source)

As Muslims, we dont have to be against our government any more than any other government, even Islamic ones. We can be patriotic and allied to the land that we grew up in and love. If we love our country, we will do everything possible to peacefully impart Islamic knowledge to them. We should not defame, rail, plot against it in the name of Islam.

I don't hate America. I want what is best for America and our constitution give us the freedom and opportunity, equal to any other group, to alter the course of its policies that we dont agree with. We just need enough people involved in the political and social process.

As American (or western) Muslims, we should not tolerate any other Muslims defaming or speaking unjustly or hypocritically about our nation. We should separate nationalism from Islam and recognize when our scholars are speaking like this. We should correct them and always speak with justice and fairness in all things. Nationalism infused into Islamic rhetoric will divide and destroy us as a people.

Read my signature and you will understand

[AbuMubarak]

you are advocating national pride? ie nationalism?

[jazain]

[spike]

you are advocating national pride? ie nationalism?

I once offered to buy you a plane ticket to Somolia, abum, the place you so desire to live rather than the States you hate so much (and you banned me from your board). That offer still stands.

[jazain]

wow and it looks like youre still in good standing here spike!!!

hey!!

"say it again!!"

"mufasaaa!"

(the lion king)

This post has been edited by jazain: Dec 6 2008, 06:31 PM

[Jim]

you are advocating national pride? ie nationalism?

There is nothing wrong with national pride until one uses it to put a political ideology off as "Islamic" teachings, which are in fact unislamic because they are unjust and hypocritical on a national level.

[jazain]

[Masood]

I once offered to buy you a plane ticket to Somolia, abum, the place you so desire to live rather than the States you hate so much (and you banned me from your board). That offer still stands.

I'm generally uncomfortable with the suggestion that "if you don't like it here then don't let the door hit you on your way out."

But in this case, AbuMubarak reminds me of a Berliner in the 1950s, 60s, or 70s desperately trying to climb the wall to get out of the place that he hates so much.

I owe you big, Spike, as you know. So if AbuM ever does take you up on your offer at least let me cover half of it.

This post has been edited by Masood: Dec 6 2008, 06:48 PM

[spike]

I'm generally uncomfortable with the suggestion that "if you don't like it here then don't let the door hit you on your way out."

But in this case, AbuMubarak reminds me of a Berliner in the 1950s, 60s, or 70s desperately trying to climb the wall to get out of the place that he hates so much.

I owe you big, Spike, as you know. So if AbuM ever does take you up on your offer at least let me cover half of it.

I share your initial sentiment about the 'love it or leave it' syndrome some people have but I was very sincere when I made that offer to abum. It bothers me to see/hear people so miserable living in a place they so obviously don't want to be. I would even invite him to stay with us on return visits. I surely don't mean to get rid of him completely.

You can spring for the taxi to O'Hare.

[spike]

wow and it looks like youre still in good standing here spike!!!

hey!!

"say it again!!"

"mufasaaa!"

(the lion king)

Roar!

[Faatih]

Asalamu alaikum and hi everyone.

Islam is a religion of moderation.

One should not be ashamed of the race, tribe, nation that he was born to since none of them is inherently bad and are created by Allah. Nor however should one be too overly proud of them. In fact I find many Muslims quite nationalistic e.g. Egyptians, Pakistanis, Turks etc and there is of course the tribalism of many Muslim societies which are not that developed.

America has contributed a lot of good to the world, but I definitely do not agree with the foreign policy decisions of many of the Democratic or Republican administrations.

- Faatih

[zmhs5]

Wa Alaikum Assalaam, Faatih. I agree. The problem occurs though when you associate having a certain nationality as better just b/c it is seen as Islamic. Ethnocentrism is rampid in some countries and has no place in making an assumption on the loyalty or betterment of another Muslim from another country. We all pray towards the Kaaba whether we are 10 ft away from it or 10,000 km from it.

[Musa]

Lets pretend for a minute that America was not at all hostile to nations with a majority Muslim population, and that it was not portraying Muslims (particularly Arabs), as "the enemy within". Then I still disagree with Nationalism and Patriotism. We bow to only one law: ALLAH'S LAW. We do not "pledge allegiance" to a flag, other than that of Allah's. Therefore, I cannot help but condemn patriotism. Patriotism causes disputes within the Ummah. It's what makes Iraq fight Iran, and Jordan fight Palestinians, and Sudanese fight Darfurians (who, please note, ARE MUSLIM), etc. National pride is a disease for the Ummah. However, the idea of signing a pact/contract in Islam is VERY important. Remember that Muhammed (saws) wanted to marry a wife (I cannot remember which) while in Mecca. But they only had permission to be there for 3 days for Umrah, and so, he consented and went back to marry in Medina. Or remember that Muhammed wanted to enter Ka'aba, but it went against the agreement, so he consented and did not go inside. Muhammed (saws) even sent Muslims back to their oppressors, in order to keep the pacts he made. There are many similar examples, but the point is, pacts in Islam are very important. So too, when you become a citizen of a nation, you are in a contract with them. That means you will follow their laws, provided that they do not force you to commit shirk or forbid you from obeying fardh.


Sayyiduna Abd Allah ibn Umar (Allah be pleased with him) narrates that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “It is necessary upon a Muslim to listen to and obey the ruler, as long as one is not ordered to carry out a sin. If he is commanded to commit a sin, then there is no adherence and obedience.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, no. 2796 & Sunan Tirmidhi)

So, that is what Islam provides us with. Now, for more personal opinion, we need to live as good citizens, but more importantly, we need to remember that Allah (swt) is our only master. Therefore, we live loyally to our country, however, we understand that Pakistan a Pakistani should be loyal to a Pakistan, and a Chinese should be loyal to China, etc. But in the end, none of these ties matter. We are all apart of the Ummah, and we must erase our national pride. Think of it more as a contract than an allegiance.

And Mûsa (Moses) said: "O my people! If you have believed in Allâh, then put your trust in Him if you are Muslims (those who submit to Allâh's Will)."

To sum it all up: Trust only Allah (swt), not your nation. However, do abide by the laws of your land, provided that they do not contradict Allah's laws. Do not be blind in your pride for your homeland, and do not criticize others for being loyal to their nations which you may see as oppressive, as long as they do not pledge allegiance to their nation over Allah (swt).

-This is mostly my own opinion, and not that of scholars. However, I will try to source more later, insha'Allah

[spike]

. We do not "pledge allegiance" to a flag, other than that of Allah's.

Since when does G-d/Allah have a flag?

[Jim]

You can see all throughout the hadith and seerah where tribes and nations converted to Islam. Although they took up the banner of Islam and the Prophets flag, the Prophet never destroyed their nation or required them to give up their tribal or national pride or political structure.

In fact, under the Caliphate nations governed themselves under a "federal" type government (ei the Caliphate). Each nation stayed nation but submitted themselves to the Caliphate in exchange for the right to be a part of the federal assembly of governerships. Each nation selected and sent representatives from their nations and tribes to represent then in the Caliphate's capital. Very similar to how the US is set up in this regard.

So, patriotism is not against Islam (haraam).

Like Faatih stated, it should be displayed in moderation. Also as Z stated " The problem occurs though when you associate having a certain nationality as better just b/c it is seen as Islamic."

These are where the problems lie.

As far as pledging allegiance, I have seen some discussion on this from the scholars. Ill see if I can locate them and post them. The gist of them on this topic is that it is your duty as a Muslim to honor your agreements with the country you live in (or anyone). If you have citizenship in a country, lets say America, then you are in a social contract that includes pledging allegiance to America. If you dont agree with that, then you must leave the country and renounce your citizenship, which I dont suggest for anyone.

Muslim countries have this and they are not even Islamic governments and are as corrupt if not more corrupt than we may believe the US government is. Word to the wise.

[Jim]

Some proof.

Question:

I am a Muslim individual living in Canada as a permanent resident, and very soon I will be required to take the Oath of Citizenship in order for me to become a Canadian citizen. This oath reads as follows:

"I swear (or affirm) that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada and fulfill my duties as a Canadian Citizen."

According to the rules in Canada, to become a Canadian citizen you will be required to repeat this oath after the presiding officer.

My concern is this: How do you see this oath from an Islamic point of view, and am I, as a Muslim individual, allowed to repeat this oath?

Answer:

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Thanks for your important question, and we really appreciate your interest to inquire about different Islamic rulings.

Islam orders us to do our best to become good citizens in our respective communities and in the countries where we live. A Muslim has to honor the laws of the country where he or she lives as long as such laws do not contradict the teachings of Islam.

As a Muslim living in Canada, there is nothing wrong with your taking the oath of citizenship as long as you are committing yourself to fulfill your duties of good citizenship while not contradicting the sovereignty of Allah.

Responding to the question, Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, a senior lecturer and Islamic scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Ontario, Canada, states the following:

You are allowed to take the oath of citizenship as long as you are clear in your mind that you are doing so without contravening the sovereignty of Allah. Canadian charter already assumes the sovereignty of God; as a Muslim you are obligated to obey the laws of the land and stand to defend it against aggression, and work for upholding justice and rights for all of its citizens; none of these ideals is contrary to the Islamic teachings.

So be clear in your conscience: By taking the oath of citizenship you are committing yourself to fulfill your duties of good citizenship while not contradicting the sovereignty of Allah, which is supreme. The laws of citizenship in Canada do allow you freedom to act according to the dictates of your conscience. You can stand up for what you believe to be right and just within the charter of rights granted to all of its citizens.

In conclusion: since taking the oath of citizenship in no way constitutes a form of shirk, you should not have any hesitation in doing so as long as your conscience is clear.

May Allah grant us discernment and rectitude in thoughts, words and actions. Ameen.

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satelli...d=1131347579632

[AbuMubarak]

<br />There is nothing wrong with national pride until one uses it to put a political ideology off as &quot;Islamic&quot; teachings, which are in fact unislamic because they are unjust and hypocritical on a national level.<br />

<br /><br /><br />

aside from some nonsensical posts by sheikh kutty, your distortions of islam are appalling for any muslim to read

we are to avoid any and all sorts of nationalism in any form, patriotism, etc, out pride should be in holding true to the book of Allah, surely you know in suratul ali imraan Allah says o you who believe, hold to the rope of Allah and do not be divided

the rope is quran and sunnah, and anything beyond that is division

now if you want to say you are american, in terms of a description, just like you being black or white, fat or tall, then that is different

if you feel kinship to americans because of common upbringing, that too is different

but at no time is any sort of pledge to other than Allah and His Messenger, and the constitution of islam supposed to be circumvented, or any ideology promoted, other than islam

Allah removed many cultural baggage of the arabs, and what He allowed was what was permissible

once, during the time of the Prophet (a jew......surprise) tried to rekindle animosity between the tribes of madina.........and they (after having so many years of tribal pride) were almost ready to fight, and the Messenger of Allah reminded them that to do so was akin to rejecting islam and returning to ignorance

jim,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,muslims come in all different shapes and sizes, beliefs and ideologies, some is good, some is deviancy, and some is bad.............what you display i see is far from anything islamic

i see dodi must be here, she feels i am intimidated by this site because i am not a moderator




let me be clear with one and all, aint nuttin up in here intimidating, its just another site of modernists, there are hundreds of them, i came here because history mentioned this place

i dont NOT come to sites like this because of fear or lack of control, but because people here (just like any other site, including ummah.com) all have their ideologies, i am not here to fight with a bunch of people who already know islam and choose to practice it in a subversive manner, that is your choice and you will have to return to Allah with that choice

i choose mainly to be amongst people who are trying to hold on to islam, in its proper way, without this facade of peace love and understanding that is nothing more than an attempt to whittle away at quran and sunnah in the name of some modern "interfaith" ideology

as far as me moving to somalia or anywhere else, i am an american, i was born here, its my duty to change this cesspool

so if you dont like my speaking, YOU can move

[spike]

<br /><br /><br />

i see dodi must be here, she feels i am intimidated by this site because i am not a moderator

let me be clear with one and all, aint nuttin up in here intimidating, its just another site of modernists, there are hundreds of them, i came here because history mentioned this place

i dont NOT come to sites like this because of fear or lack of control, but because people here (just like any other site, including ummah.com) all have their ideologies, i am not here to fight with a bunch of people who already know islam and choose to practice it in a subversive manner, that is your choice and you will have to return to Allah with that choice

i choose mainly to be amongst people who are trying to hold on to islam, in its proper way, without this facade of peace love and understanding that is nothing more than an attempt to whittle away at quran and sunnah in the name of some modern "interfaith" ideology

as far as me moving to somalia or anywhere else, i am an american, i was born here, its my duty to change this cesspool

so if you dont like my speaking, YOU can move

Your paranoia is showing, abum .. back to reading my mind again and speaking for me. You come to sites like this to lord it over others and preach your version of your beliefs while shooting down those of others. Yours isn't the one and only, never was, never will be.

What? You've changed your mind about moving to Somalia? That saddens me. You could do so much good there with your energy and expertise. The only cesspool in America that needs changing by you is yours. Clean up your own act before trouncing others. My offer is still open for you to come visit.

[Jim]

AbuMubarak,

I give you a scholar's reference, and you insult him. Ill remember that next time you or they claim I insult someone

My distortions are from your anti-islamic viewpoint perhaps but s certainly within Islam and backed up by the scholars. Sheikh Abdullah Jibreen, scholar of fiqh and is a former member of the Permanent Committee for Islamic Research and Fataawa in Saudi Arabia, also gave this same information, which I am relaying and Shikh Kutty restated, in a fatwah to American Muslims at our Dawah conference in 2004.

He is far more qualified than you or I to speak on this topic.

Here, some hadith for you to dismiss:

Sahih Bukhari
Volume 1, Book 2, Number 38:

Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "Religion is very easy and whoever overburdens himself in his religion will not be able to continue in that way. So you should not be extremists, but try to be near to perfection and receive the good tidings that you will be rewarded; and gain strength by worshipping in the mornings, the nights." (See Fath-ul-Bari, Page 102, Vol 1).

--

"Extremists are fanatic zealots who exceed bounds in words and deeds" and "bigots" [Imam Al-Nawawi, Sharh Sahih Muslim (16:220 and 7:214)].

---

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said: "The deeds of anyone of you will not save you." They said, "Even you, O Allah's Apostle?" He said, "No, even I (will not be saved) unless and until Allah bestows His Mercy on me. Therefore, do good deeds properly, sincerely and moderately, and worship Allah in the forenoon and in the afternoon and during a part of the night, and always adopt a middle, moderate, regular course whereby you will reach your target (Paradise)."

(Bukhari)

narrated by Abdullah bin Amr bin Al-As, God Told Mohammed :

You are neither hard-hearted nor of fierce character, nor one who shouts in the markets. You do not return evil for evil, but excuse and forgive. - Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 362

--

Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors. - Quran 2:190

You clearly must agree to my statement

There is nothing wrong with national pride until one uses it to put a political ideology off as "Islamic" teachings, which are in fact unislamic because they are unjust and hypocritical on a national level.

Otherwise, you are just spouting useless rhetoric based on nothing more than your own fear and prejudice. Any ideology that is not from Islam, should not be put out as if it is Islam. I never said it was wrong to be patriotic to your government, quite the contrary. However, it should not be forced down my throat and that of others as if such leftist and anti-west dogma is from Islam.

[Musa]

^I'll respond to your earlier post later (I'm going to be pretty busy today). But in the meantime, I've noticed people are quoting these hadith about not being extreme. While I agree we should not necessarily be extreme politically, it is also important to note that, from what I've heard, that is not what these hadith are referring to. They are saying, do the obligations, but don't do more than you can burden. I think a good example would be when the elderly woman was fasting on Hajj. She could barely walk and (I cannot remember so clearly) but I think, Muhammed (saws) asked if she is okay or something, and he was told she is fasting. And he told her to Immediately break the fast, because she is going to too far of an extreme.(If someone knows this hadith better, please correct me. However, this is the lesson from it). I don't think, we can say these hadith are in reference to political/social aspects of Islam.

This post has been edited by Musa: Dec 7 2008, 07:57 AM