Faith Is Irrational, Defining religious faith Options

[ItsDarts]

Circumstantial evidence is how most people get convicted. Don't listen to Law and Order, you'll end up sitting in a very small room with a roomate you never wanted if you do.

EVERYTHING is subjective, even what is considered objective. We as a species are completely subjective. Even "Evidence" is subjective. Science is based upon Observation...by animals. (Yes we are animals get over it)

So, while irrational to one, is perfectly rational to another.

As human animals (I agree we are animals) we have the ability to have a common discourse and without this, nothing could be discussed. I disagree that everything is subjective in light of the common discourse and universally agreed upon labels we give things, i.e. a chair is a chair to you, me and the guy next door. A book is a book, an atom is an atom. We have labels for things so we can discuss and agree and have commonality. If I have a chair and you call it a Tomato, then yes, your view is subjective, but wrong in the common discourse of reality.

[GordonHide]

I tire of trying to get a straight answer to the question "Why do you think religious faith should be rational?".

So let me give you a couple of answers to this and end this exchange here:

You might have said: "Other uses of the word faith involve evidence and rationality such: I have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow or I have faith in my fellow man."

Or you might have said: "Faith without rationality leads to believing without evidence and that leads to believing in error. Error in belief eventually leads to error in action and that could be bad for everyone. Therefore I am entitled to expect that faith should be rational"

[ItsDarts]

As I stateed previously:

What faith relies on is often what is also admissible in the Judicial system courts. Overwhelming circumstancial evidence [complexity of cosmos, lifeforms, etc], eyewitness statements, or testimony of individuals [where God is said to have interacted with mankind]. Although in the case of faith, these individuals are not around anymore to declare their testimony is not being misrepresented [we must rely on historical data for authenticity of texts].

Books = Testimonial evidence, i.e. statments.
Creation = Overwheming circumstancial evidence.
Us = Jury

If we're discussing a court of law, they would not under any circumstances accept testamony from a book as evidence of reality. But thats not really the point considering the circumstancial evidence has been used to wrong accuse people as well, so in that sense, circumstancial evidence isn't always rational either. As for creationism, if there was "overwhelming circumstancial evidence", we wouldn't need evolution, but creationism doesn't explain anything we know about reality, but oddly enough, evolution explains much of what we know about biology and without it, most of what we know about biology doesn't work. We can't toss out theories because it goes against religious beliefs.

[Jim]

If we're discussing a court of law, they would not under any circumstances accept testamony from a book as evidence of reality. But thats not really the point considering the circumstancial evidence has been used to wrong accuse people as well, so in that sense, circumstancial evidence isn't always rational either. As for creationism, if there was "overwhelming circumstancial evidence", we wouldn't need evolution, but creationism doesn't explain anything we know about reality, but oddly enough, evolution explains much of what we know about biology and without it, most of what we know about biology doesn't work. We can't toss out theories because it goes against religious beliefs.

Yep.

Creationism explains the very basics. The problem is that when people think of creationism, they think "Christian" concepts of Creationism, which is quite different than how Muslims view creation and science.

In Islam, there is room for evolutionary thought and scientific method to a much greater degree than in Christianity.

[ItsDarts]

I tire of trying to get a straight answer to the question "Why do you think religious faith should be rational?".

So let me give you a couple of answers to this and end this exchange here:

You might have said: "Other uses of the word faith involve evidence and rationality such: I have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow or I have faith in my fellow man."

Or you might have said: "Faith without rationality leads to believing without evidence and that leads to believing in error. Error in belief eventually leads to error in action and that could be bad for everyone. Therefore I am entitled to expect that faith should be rational"

I thought I answered you but apparently I wasn't clear enough..... yes, I did answer your and I said... "Lets see, killing in the name of gods, denying medical treatment hoping a god will cure you, seeking special privileges based on your religion, like school prayer. Making statements like "God has sent me on a mission" or something simillar that George Bush spout out a while back..... There are lots of reasons why faith (belief without logical proof or empiricle evidence) in the existence of god(s) is irrational.

OK, I didn't come right out and say why it should be considered irrational, but I thought I made the point none the less. This is why I feel its irrational. Does that help?

Here are other examples of why I think faith, belief in the existence of god without logical proof or empirical evidence, is irrational.....

Christians arrested for proselytizing in Jordan

Strong support for Shari'a in some muslim countries

100,000 Muslims to vent anger in London at cartoon protest

and to be fair, how about for the christians....

God hates fags ( My guess this affects muslims too) Don't give me a warning, this is a real site.

Granted, I know these are extreme cases and not all people are like this and I don't judge all people based on the few. However, their beliefs are in the same god based on the same "evidence" if you can call it that, irrational belief in the existence of a god not based on logical proof or empirical evidence for their god's existence. Should belief in god(s) be considered irrational, in my opinion, yes, based on the lack of logical proof or empirical evidence for its existence.

[ItsDarts]

Yep.

Creationism explains the very basics. The problem is that when people think of creationism, they think "Christian" concepts of Creationism, which is quite different than how Muslims view creation and science.

In Islam, there is room for evolutionary thought and scientific method to a much greater degree than in Christianity.

I admit I don't know the Islamic story of creationism (thats one reason I'm here, to learn) and I always thought that you (muslims) accepted the biblical story since you accept the biblical prophets as being gods messengers. One thing you might be able to help me with is pointing me to an online english version of the Koran. Possibly one that is used as reference on these forums and possibly one that is written in more modern english, sort of like the NIV version of the bible? On the various christian forums I'm on, we commonly use www.biblegateway.com as our reference because it has many versions of the bible we can reference, but the NIV version used most often.

Maybe you can give me a brief rundown on the Islamic creation story and references? Thanks in advance.

[Jim]

I admit I don't know the Islamic story of creationism (thats one reason I'm here, to learn) and I always thought that you (muslims) accepted the biblical story since you accept the biblical prophets as being gods messengers. One thing you might be able to help me with is pointing me to an online english version of the Koran. Possibly one that is used as reference on these forums and possibly one that is written in more modern english, sort of like the NIV version of the bible? On the various christian forums I'm on, we commonly use www.biblegateway.com as our reference because it has many versions of the bible we can reference, but the NIV version used most often.

Maybe you can give me a brief rundown on the Islamic creation story and references? Thanks in advance.

Okay.

As far as creation goes, Islam teaches that Allah is beyond space and time, corruption and age. When he relays to us that he did such and such, in a day, it is symbolic to us as a day to God can be thousand or millions or billions of years. He is not subject to time and space.

We believe in a supreme being that created everything, but science is the human method in the discovery of how he did it and what is out there yet to discover. Everything is discovered through the scientific method. Scientific method is not used to prove or disprove the existence of God, but is used to discover the secrets of what exists, ie God's creation.

This is one of the major hallmarks that has made Islam distinct from medieval Christianity. While Chrisitians were presecuting scientists and thinkers, they thrived in the Early Islamic empire.

Going back on myself for a moment...

Muslims believe in a supreme being, ie "Allah". Allah literally means "The God"; singular. [Al] plus [illah] = Allah

The very first verse of the Quran says, "Alhamdulillahi rabbyil 'alameen", which means "All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds"

There are many more verses but I will stop at there for ease of understanding.

Muslims believe God created everything that exists, seen and unseen, known and unknown. He created this universe and possibly many other universes, dimensions and many things we just dont know. He created many worlds, some which may have life other than the life Allah has told us about and we see here on earth. Allah identifies for us 3 types of intelligent life forms in our universe. Angels, beings made of light, Jinn, beings made of fire, and Mankind. Of course we know there is all of what exist in the world. There is sufficient evidence in Quran to support the idea that Allah has created other life in other worlds in this universe and anywhere else unknown.

I have posted on possible Alien life forms in this thread: http://islamfactor.org/index.php?showtopic=294&hl=alien

[ItsDarts]

Any links to a possible modern english version of the koran with chapter/verse references to this story?

[Jim]

Any links to a possible modern english version of the koran with chapter/verse references to this story?

Yes, there are a number of works out there. I could spend a lot of time researching for you, not that I am not willing to.

However, here is an article that follows along the lines of what I told you, with verses referenced.

http://islam.about.com/od/creation/a/creation.htm

[Jim]

And here is another short article.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesize/...ationrev2.shtml

[ItsDarts]

Yes, there are a number of works out there. I could spend a lot of time researching for you, not that I am not willing to.

However, here is an article that follows along the lines of what I told you, with verses referenced.

http://islam.about.com/od/creation/a/creation.htm

I didn't mean for you to do research for me, I've done "some" on my own and have found nothing that even comes close to Biblegateway.com as far as a reference tool for the Quran. I guess I just assumed this would be something you might have saved already and I have looked in the links section and noticed there was nothing there either. Thanks for the link just the same.

[ItsDarts]

And here is another short article.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesize/...ationrev2.shtml

OK, from this site on the second page it says..... "Muslims do not accept Darwin's theory with respect to human beings but they do understand that the earth, its physical make-up and climate are subject to scientific change."

So in regards to evolution of humans, what does the Quran teach about Human existence in light of the fact that evolution is fact and theory?

[Geshtinnanna]

2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.

I believe my father, even though dead since I was 11, does indeed still love me. I have no logical proof or material evidence

I believe that Cabbage Patch dolls are evil. Though I have no logical proof or material evidence...but you all know I am right.

There is nothing wrong with having some level or irrational thought since we are not 100% rational beings. It would be irrational to think otherwise

[LadyGarnetRose]

As human animals (I agree we are animals) we have the ability to have a common discourse and without this, nothing could be discussed. I disagree that everything is subjective in light of the common discourse and universally agreed upon labels we give things, i.e. a chair is a chair to you, me and the guy next door. A book is a book, an atom is an atom. We have labels for things so we can discuss and agree and have commonality. If I have a chair and you call it a Tomato, then yes, your view is subjective, but wrong in the common discourse of reality.

The moment you observe something, it changes as the result of observing it.

Common discourse is subjective to the culture in which it pertains to.

Labels are one thing, and only pertain to the language in which they are given.

[Jim]

I didn't mean for you to do research for me, I've done "some" on my own and have found nothing that even comes close to Biblegateway.com as far as a reference tool for the Quran. I guess I just assumed this would be something you might have saved already and I have looked in the links section and noticed there was nothing there either. Thanks for the link just the same.

Oh, you wanted a search tool? Mybad, went way over my head Sorry

You can search the quran at this link.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/searchquran.html

[Jim]

OK, from this site on the second page it says..... "Muslims do not accept Darwin's theory with respect to human beings but they do understand that the earth, its physical make-up and climate are subject to scientific change."

So in regards to evolution of humans, what does the Quran teach about Human existence in light of the fact that evolution is fact and theory?

Here is the basic story of Adam, the first man.

All of the creatures on earth were created on earth and Darwins theory CAN apply to them according to Islam. However with the creation of man, it cannot apply according to Islam.

Man was created from the clot of mud or clay (not apes) from the earth but was created and dwelled in Heaven. However, God also said that we were created seperate and meant to dwell in Paradise (in Heaven with God) where Adam and Eve lived until the fall. After the fall we began to occupy the earth itself and dominate the planet.

This verse says the order of Man's creation:

Qur'an 22:5 Says, O mankind! if ye have a doubt about the Resurrection, (consider) that We created you out of dust, then out of sperm, then out of a leech-like clot, then out of a morsel of flesh, partly formed and partly unformed, in order that We may manifest (our power) to you; and We cause whom We will to rest in the wombs for an appointed term, then do We bring you out as babes, then (foster you) that ye may reach your age of full strength; and some of you are called to die, and some are sent back to the feeblest old age, so that they know nothing after having known (much), and (further), thou seest the earth barren and lifeless, but when We pour down rain on it, it is stirred (to life), it swells, and it puts forth every kind of beautiful growth (in pairs).

Qur'an 3:59 says, The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was.

Qur'an 7:11 says, It is We Who created you and gave you shape;

These verses indicated Adam was in heaven first.

Qur'an 2:31 says, And He taught Adam the names of all things; then He placed them before the angels, and said: "Tell me the names of these if ye are right."

IMPORTANT Qur'an 20:116- Says, When We said to the angels (while in the Heavens where Adam lived), "Prostrate yourselves to Adam", they prostrated themselves, but not Iblis (the devil): he refused. Then We said: "O Adam! verily, this is an enemy to thee and thy wife: so let him not get you both out of the Garden (Paradise in the Heavens), so that thou art landed in misery. There is (in the heavens where Adam dwelled) therein (enough provision) for thee not to go hungry nor to go naked,Nor to suffer from thirst, nor from the sun's heat. But Satan whispered evil to him: he said, "O Adam! shall I lead thee to the Tree of Eternity and to a kingdom that never decays?" In the result, they both ate of the tree, and so their nakedness appeared to them: they began to sew together, for their covering, leaves from the Garden: thus did Adam disobey his Lord, and allow himself to be seduced. But his Lord chose him (for His Grace): He turned to him, and gave him Guidance. He said (to Adam and Eve): "Get ye down (from the heavens), both of you,- all together, from the Garden, with enmity one to another: but if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from Me, whosoever follows My Guidance, will not lose his way, nor fall into misery.

[ItsDarts]

Thanks, I was able to find the muslim story of Adam & Eve online as well. I must say it isn't all that different than the christian teaching of Adam. This alone should make educated muslims wonder, is this a parable or is this the literal understanding of Human creation? If literal, how do you reconcile the FACT that our DNA is 98.5% the same as Chimpanzees? If literal, then it would seem you are taking this on faith that it is true and against known scientific evidence and I consider this irrational.

Let me ask you this.... If I said, Allah spoke to me and this is what he said, would you believe me? Why not? If I said that Muhammed got it wrong when he claimed to be the last prophet and that I am now the new last prophet, would you believe me? Why not?

Doesn't it seem the least bit odd that Allah only spoke to people 1500 to 3000 years ago and hasn't said a word or performed a great miracle since? I'll give the Arabs credit for having a better knowledge of how things work, but this isn't evidence for a god, its evidence for better knowledge and education, as vague as it may be. Honestly, there is no rational reason to accept the Quran (and Hadiths) as word of a god, but rather the words of people looking to keep their power and control on the uneducated masses. Like Christians and Jews and any other god worshiping people, there is no empirical evidence for a god. Belief relies on faith (per def 2).

[ItsDarts]

I believe my father, even though dead since I was 11, does indeed still love me. I have no logical proof or material evidence

I believe that Cabbage Patch dolls are evil. Though I have no logical proof or material evidence...but you all know I am right.

There is nothing wrong with having some level or irrational thought since we are not 100% rational beings. It would be irrational to think otherwise

With all due respect, your father can't "love" anymore. Love is an emotion that requires a brain. Without brains, emotions do not exist. We know this and can measure this. There is no reason to assume "we" exist after death. Our brains start to turn to mush within an hour of being dead. There is no evidence, other than wishfull thinking, for the existence of a soul that lives on without our bodies and retains "thought". Thought only occurs in functioning brains. We know this because people without functioning brains, but are still alive, show no brain activity. We can diable parts of the brain and in doing so, disable various functions and emotions. This leads us to believe that thought is nothing more than some physical aspect we do not fully understand.

[Jim]

Thanks, I was able to find the muslim story of Adam & Eve online as well. I must say it isn't all that different than the christian teaching of Adam. This alone should make educated muslims wonder, is this a parable or is this the literal understanding of Human creation? If literal, how do you reconcile the FACT that our DNA is 98.5% the same as Chimpanzees? If literal, then it would seem you are taking this on faith that it is true and against known scientific evidence and I consider this irrational.

Let me ask you this.... If I said, Allah spoke to me and this is what he said, would you believe me? Why not? If I said that Muhammed got it wrong when he claimed to be the last prophet and that I am now the new last prophet, would you believe me? Why not?

Doesn't it seem the least bit odd that Allah only spoke to people 1500 to 3000 years ago and hasn't said a word or performed a great miracle since? I'll give the Arabs credit for having a better knowledge of how things work, but this isn't evidence for a god, its evidence for better knowledge and education, as vague as it may be. Honestly, there is no rational reason to accept the Quran (and Hadiths) as word of a god, but rather the words of people looking to keep their power and control on the uneducated masses. Like Christians and Jews and any other god worshiping people, there is no empirical evidence for a god. Belief relies on faith (per def 2).

If Allah spoke through you in the manner he did the Prophet, then there would be proof that you are a Prophet.

It is not possible that there is another Prophet after Muhammad, Allah said so And Allah words are authentic.

As far as DNA and monkeys, Allah created everything from clay with the same building blocks of earthly life. We are all carbon based life forms and no doubt have similarities in how Allah created us. He used a gene base to form all life from the earth and our bodies. He created Adam in the same manner just didnt do it on earth. He did it in heaven.

I think the Christians would strongly disagree with Islamic science as they have always in history spurring the need for the age of enlightenment

No it isnt odd at all that there hasnt been a miracle from a Prophet since. Allah spoke to people all throughout history and they all kept going astray. He sent a last Prophet before he judges humanity once and for all. That Prophet was Muhammad in our view. Thus, it make perfect sense. He is humanity's last chance before he calls and end to life on earth and brings mankind to judgment.

The evidence that he Quran is Gods word is in the fact that things that science has only recently (last 100 years) been dscovering were already spoken in the Quran 1400 years ago when humans were not so advanced.

There is much more about things we havent discovered yet, like life on other worlds When humanity finds out about that, I guess there will be someone saying the same thing you are to some other Muslim in the future

[Geshtinnanna]

With all due respect, your father can't "love" anymore. Love is an emotion that requires a brain. Without brains, emotions do not exist. We know this and can measure this. There is no reason to assume "we" exist after death. Our brains start to turn to mush within an hour of being dead. There is no evidence, other than wishfull thinking, for the existence of a soul that lives on without our bodies and retains "thought". Thought only occurs in functioning brains. We know this because people without functioning brains, but are still alive, show no brain activity. We can diable parts of the brain and in doing so, disable various functions and emotions. This leads us to believe that thought is nothing more than some physical aspect we do not fully understand.

I know logically he can't love me since he's been dead since I was 11. Of course there is the irrational logic that he lives on through my memory and discussion of him to living poeple....hence irrationally believing he still loves me. And I have no problem with living with that totally irrational belief. No harm, no foul to anyone to believe my dead father still loves me.

You know my Baptist brother tried to explain to me how my father was dead in the ground till Jesus comes back etc. Telling that rational explanation to an 11 year old is an irrational thing to do. So some irrational stuff I am perfectly ok with