Sublime Quran Options

[Cyra]

I was recently refered to this version of the Quran by a good friend of mine. I'm wondering if anyone here has read this translation and finds it to be any better than other translations. If you find it to be not worthy, what are your reasons?

www.sublimequran.org Visit My Website

[jaba]

I haven't heard anything about this version of the Quran, but here is some info on the author >> http://www.iranian.com/May96/Arts/Bakhtiar.html

[lalettab]

A friend of mine also told me this was good, but I haven't had the chance to read it myself yet... still waiting to hear from someone who's read it... lol

[Cyra]

Laletta!!! How's it goin'??? Nice to see you back here!

My friend is Muslim, born in Pakistan, but raised in US. She highly recommends this one. I'm taking a poll, if you will...lol. Thanks for the article, Jaba. Very nice!

[jimdi]

It sounds wonderful and the explanations of the translater are clear and understandable. No doubt this Sublime Qur'an is up to date, with good translations and should provide the non Arabic speaker/reader with an ideal publication.

Now a question. How does it get obtain a seal of authority from any of the Schools of thought?

For example ..... if it causes a question from a reader will the responce come back ... you should learn Arabic as the Qur'an is only really understood in Classical Arabic?

No offence - please! But the Christian World comes under intense criticism from it's detractors over it's different translations.

[aladdin]

It sounds wonderful and the explanations of the translater are clear and understandable. No doubt this Sublime Qur'an is up to date, with good translations and should provide the non Arabic speaker/reader with an ideal publication.

Now a question. How does it get obtain a seal of authority from any of the Schools of thought?

For example ..... if it causes a question from a reader will the responce come back ... you should learn Arabic as the Qur'an is only really understood in Classical Arabic?

No offence - please! But the Christian World comes under intense criticism from it's detractors over it's different translations.

Salam brother,

1. You will never have the seal of approval.
2. A translated Quran is not a Quran.
3. A translated Quran is an interpretation of the Quran.
4. Interpretation of the Quran changes with time and the level of intellectual.
5. Intellectual levels changes with the rise and decline of the cultures.
6. A translated scripture give rise to further translations of translation of the scripture.
7. And, so forth.
8. Now the scripture is no longer the scripture and thus man made book of rules.
9. I can go on and on.

[Cyra]

Salam brother,

1. You will never have the seal of approval.
2. A translated Quran is not a Quran.
3. A translated Quran is an interpretation of the Quran.
4. Interpretation of the Quran changes with time and the level of intellectual.
5. Intellectual levels changes with the rise and decline of the cultures.
6. A translated scripture give rise to further translations of translation of the scripture.
7. And, so forth.
8. Now the scripture is no longer the scripture and thus man made book of rules.
9. I can go on and on.

Jim, I will agree that reading in Arabic would be the way to go, but until I can learn to understand the language better, I need something else. Which leads me to Aladdin's comments...

My question was, as far as translations go, how does this one hold up?? Since there are approx. 25 different ways to translate the phrase "to beat," anyone reading in the original language may take it 25 different ways, no? Which is why we may have so many who misunderstand in the original Arabic anyway...I think. I don't think that translating turns it into a manmade book of rules, it just gives those of us without the advantage of knowing the original language the opportunity to read it and maybe understand a little more. Are you saying that I need to learn Arabic before I can even read the book behind the faith I'm considering??? Gads man, do ya know how long that might take? And would it be fair to me or anyone else considering Islam as their basis of faith? Seriously dude, was your American wife able to pick up an Arabic Quran and read it on the first day? It's a whole new learning process, yaknow. A little slack for those of us unschooled, plz. The woman that translated is of American and Iranian descent, with a knowledge of the language, among other things. I think she might be more qualified to translate than some of the others I've seen. Did you check the website or the link posted by Jaba??

[aladdin]

Salam sister,

It is not your lack of the Arabic language, but my lack of English language to properly express myself.

I am all for translations, but I not for the translations of the translations of the translations...........

And, since the translations vary so much, therefore no one translation will be accepted by all Muslims.

Yes, I have been on her site and read some of her work. She is excellent.

We are discussing right now to what you are alluding. I believe that once we have finished discussing that it should be moved from the safe zone to the cage for everyone's benefit. Maybe, a locked thread.

[Jim]

Jim, I will agree that reading in Arabic would be the way to go, but until I can learn to understand the language better, I need something else. Which leads me to Aladdin's comments...

My question was, as far as translations go, how does this one hold up?? Since there are approx. 25 different ways to translate the phrase "to beat," anyone reading in the original language may take it 25 different ways, no? Which is why we may have so many who misunderstand in the original Arabic anyway...I think. I don't think that translating turns it into a manmade book of rules, it just gives those of us without the advantage of knowing the original language the opportunity to read it and maybe understand a little more. Are you saying that I need to learn Arabic before I can even read the book behind the faith I'm considering??? Gads man, do ya know how long that might take? And would it be fair to me or anyone else considering Islam as their basis of faith? Seriously dude, was your American wife able to pick up an Arabic Quran and read it on the first day? It's a whole new learning process, yaknow. A little slack for those of us unschooled, plz. The woman that translated is of American and Iranian descent, with a knowledge of the language, among other things. I think she might be more qualified to translate than some of the others I've seen. Did you check the website or the link posted by Jaba??

I think that if ISNA has spoken in support of it, the translation is relatively good. ISNA is a continent wide recognized organization that most all other organizations look to for guidance and decisions of shariah on many Islamic matters.

I think we would have to buy it, read it and study it to determine if it truly is worth its weight. i am proud of the fact that a woman has stepped up to the plate to offer her rendition of the translation of the meanings of Quran.

the thing is that regardless of translation, it will never be a Quran, just another translation.

She is Sufi so it may have a sufi flavor to it (as scholars translate according to their understanding of hadith and leanings), but that is not to knock the translation. It could be very good for all we know.

[Cyra]

I hear you, both Br. Jim and Aladdin, in regards to the concept that it is a translation. But not a translation of a translation. She translated from the Arabic to English and, from what I gathered, has transliteration, so that one uneducated in Arabic can follow when being read to. There is also supposed to be a version with the Arabic, as well. I don't know if it has gone to print, though.

I don't intend to debate on this. It is a non-issue as I have agreed with your assertions that it is not Quran unless in original Arabic. If someone else cares to debate, feel free. I am simply seeking guidance as to which translation to go with at the moment.

This post has been edited by Cyra: Oct 31 2008, 10:12 AM

[jimdi]

Thankyou for those replies. I am only to contribute from my own thoughts on this matter being very much the outsider looking in. I was somewhat taken with the Bakhtiar and her scholarship. Eventually I will obtain a copy of her work and read it for myself. In the meantime I received the expected reply and continue to be sad about it because to me those who do not speak Arabic are unable to 'know' the true 'Word' only an interpretation of it.

I do not believe God intended it that way.

IMHO whatever translation is used and it brings the reader closer to God ... it doesn't matter. The fact that the Religious./Political Leaders (way of life instructors) are able to keep their hands on the ultimate authority is secondary. What matters is the individual's relationship with God and I'm sure (actually I know), that is want God wants and Bakhtiars work will contribute to that.

[Firedragon]

In this translation the word Idribuhun is translated as "to go away". The traditional belief is "to beat".

This is the controversial verse that most women do not like. As all of us know the word is derived from darab. Some other verses in the Quran that uses the same word is below. YOu will see the difference between Beat and the following translations.

Seest thou not how Allah sets forth a parable? - A goodly word like a goodly tree, whose root is firmly fixed, and its branches (reach) to the heavens,- of its Lord. So Allah sets forth parables for men, in order that they may receive admonition.

(Charity is) for those in need, who, in Allah's cause are restricted (from travel), and cannot move about in the land, seeking (For trade or work): the ignorant man thinks, because of their modesty, that they are free from want. Thou shalt know them by their (Unfailing) mark: They beg not importunately from all the sundry. And whatever of good ye give, be assured Allah knoweth it well.

If thou couldst see, when the angels take the souls of the Unbelievers (at death), (How) they smite their faces and their backs, (saying): "Taste the penalty of the blazing Fire-

Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

(The translation is by Yusuf Ali)

That way I agree with Sublime Quran. Good work. Translation is from the context of the Quran.

[jimdi]

Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

I think men used to be protectors and maintainers of women ..... Not any longer. There are many families out there where the principle bread winner ( and in many cases - the only bread winner) is the female. When the male elects to be the house husband then the roles are reversed and any advice he wants to give his wife will have to be rather circumspect else he wont be invited to the maternal bed is he's not careful

[Firedragon]

I think men used to be protectors and maintainers of women ..... Not any longer. There are many families out there where the principle bread winner ( and in many cases - the only bread winner) is the female. When the male elects to be the house husband then the roles are reversed and any advice he wants to give his wife will have to be rather circumspect else he wont be invited to the maternal bed is he's not careful

The men are to support the women by what God has gifted them over one another and for what they spend of their money. The upright women who are attentive, and keep private the personal matters for what God keeps watch over. As for those women from whom you fear a desertion, then you shall advise them, and abandon them in the bedchamber, and go forth; if they obey you, then do not seek a way over them; God is High, Great." (4:34)

“The men are to support the women by what God has bestowed on them over one another and for what they spend of their money. The upright women are dutiful; keeping private the personal matters for what God keeps watch over. As for those women from whom you fear desertion (Nushooz4), then you shall advise them, and abandon them in the bedchamber, and separate from them (Idribuhun). If they respond to you, then do not seek a way over them; God is High, Great.”(Qur’an 4:34)

Are more appropriate translations I believe. You would see that the Quran is with you.

The number of times the words "man" and "woman" are repeated in the Qur'an 23 times. Its funny. Even in the number of times the sexes are mentioned, there is no discrimination.

[jimdi]

Whose doing the inviting?

[MuslimNextDoor]

Jimdi. Men are the protecter and maintainers of the women. Allah(swt) said so. Yes a woman can be making more than a man and be the finiancial distributor of the household, but it doesn't make her the protector or the maintainer. it makes her the bread winner.

[Firedragon]

Jimdi. Men are the protecter and maintainers of the women. Allah(swt) said so. Yes a woman can be making more than a man and be the finiancial distributor of the household, but it doesn't make her the protector or the maintainer. it makes her the bread winner.

True

[Firedragon]

Men do excel over women as god says, probably because of strength and ability to work in some conditions where women will find it difficult (Due to pregnancy, Menstruation and work environment surrounded by roudy men etc)

But this is mentioned as a duty. Not as superiority. This is equity. Not power. Now things have changed and using your brain women can work from home under these conditions and maybe even make enough money or more. But the Quran is laying the foundation for maybe a situation that could arise when the man must know that his duty is such.

My fault.

[aladdin]

I hear you, both Br. Jim and Aladdin, in regards to the concept that it is a translation. But not a translation of a translation. She translated from the Arabic to English and, from what I gathered, has transliteration, so that one uneducated in Arabic can follow when being read to.

Salam sister,

Excellent post!

Here are some rules though:

1. In each chapter of the Quran, the verses run continuously without commas and periods.
2. In translation into English commas and periods are used, which can change the meaning significantly.
3. Extra words are added though sometimes in brackets, either to push one's agenda or to make the reading easier.
4. Footnotes are added at the bottom to push one's agenda.
5. A prime example is the Sahih International Translation, which has the footnotes at the bottom to push the agenda of Wahhabis/Salafis.
6. Even the title is very misleading which means Authenticated International Translation.
7. Lately, the dictionaries and lexicon are used to translate the Quran, rather than the hadiths, tafsir and so forth.
8. And, on and on.

There is also supposed to be a version with the Arabic, as well. I don't know if it has gone to print, though.

I am confused by your statement, is she writing a new Quran in Arabic language?

I don't intend to debate on this. It is a non-issue as I have agreed with your assertions that it is not Quran unless in original Arabic. If someone else cares to debate, feel free. I am simply seeking guidance as to which translation to go with at the moment.

Excellent sister!

You are right that the translations of the translations of the translations...... are frowned upon.

Or for example one is fluent in both English and Japanese. So he/she uses the English translated version to translate it to Japanese. Then comes along someone who is fluent in Japanese and Chinese and he/she translates from this Japanese translated version into Chinese and so forth. I know sister that you have understood this point but this is for other readers.

A Quran or the translated Quran is always given away for free. A donation helps to offset the efforts gone into everything, including the cost of printing and in case of translation some relief for the translator.

There are few version which are just for sale only and there is nothing wrong with it. Especially, the N. J. Dawood translation who was an Iraqi Jewish with an agenda. He is dead long since, but new and new the so called updated versions of the old translation are produced by the publisher to push the same agenda. It is the best selling Quran translation in USA.

Here are two free versions of the Quran, with lots of translations giving the opportunity to compare the translations.

Online: http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/

Offline: Quran Viewer with eight other English translations to be added in. And, the Noble Quran. I use both.

Quran Viewer v2.913: http://www.soft32.com/download_4097.html
Noble Quran: http://www.downloadbazar.com/archives/000627.php

[Cyra]

In this translation the word Idribuhun is translated as "to go away". The traditional belief is "to beat".

This is the controversial verse that most women do not like. As all of us know the word is derived from darab. Some other verses in the Quran that uses the same word is below. YOu will see the difference between Beat and the following translations.

Seest thou not how Allah sets forth a parable? - A goodly word like a goodly tree, whose root is firmly fixed, and its branches (reach) to the heavens,- of its Lord. So Allah sets forth parables for men, in order that they may receive admonition.

(Charity is) for those in need, who, in Allah's cause are restricted (from travel), and cannot move about in the land, seeking (For trade or work): the ignorant man thinks, because of their modesty, that they are free from want. Thou shalt know them by their (Unfailing) mark: They beg not importunately from all the sundry. And whatever of good ye give, be assured Allah knoweth it well.

If thou couldst see, when the angels take the souls of the Unbelievers (at death), (How) they smite their faces and their backs, (saying): "Taste the penalty of the blazing Fire-

Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

(The translation is by Yusuf Ali)

That way I agree with Sublime Quran. Good work. Translation is from the context of the Quran.

Thank you for the additional info on the many different ways to translate one phrase or word.

The translation of "beat them (lightly)" doesn't jive with the way I understand the prophet (pbuh) treated any of his wives, but that is one stumbling block amongst many, I'm sure. Some guys will take something and run with it, going to extremes. Like the one that beat his TV journalist wife badly enough to put her in the hospital and out of work for going upstairs to visit her sister in law without telling him where she was going.

Anyway, Jimdi...did you expect a different response from some folks?? Seriously? Some ppl just can't see beyond beliefs/opinions of what is "right" in order to to assist others in the understanding of God's/Allah's words. Thankfully, there are others that can. This translation was recommended to me by a highly educated, muslim woman who I have a great deal of respect for and am extremely happy that she is my friend. She is a born muslim and the funny thing is that she doesn't know enough Arabic to read a non translated version of the Quran. Does this decrease her in any way?? No. Does it decrease her faith in her religon? No. Although, I'm without a doubt that there are plenty who will say otherwise.

Whatever, I bought my copy today. I will compare to how this reads to Shakir's and Ali's translations and decide for myself, in the end. It will take my old and addled brain far too long to learn Arabic enough to read Quran. In the meantime, I hav no choice but to rely on translations and input from those that do know the language.