Song of Songs/Song of Soloman Options

[Geshtinnanna]

Do you really want to know?

Yeah. Because I have two bibles. One from Catholic church and one from an American Standard one. Both have different books inside. So when people say it's in the bible I always have to ask which one?

[spike]

I have other questions about the Bible, Tony, that will probably disgust you as well. They will come in time. I've had these questions, as I said, since I was a pre-teen. Your disgust will not hinder me from asking them.

Breasts like towers and kisses like honey... sounds more like lust than love to me.

This literature was written to and for an ancient agricultural/animal husbandry/nomadic people. Of course the language is one that appealed to them that they spoke and/or could easily associate with .. and, having been nomadic and not evolved, I have no doubt those early Hebrews were a right lusty people out there in the desert - what's wrong with that? Why else do you think G-d would caution 'everything in moderation?'

To understand the writings, look at the people, the places, the times, the ways of living and what was happening. "kisses like honey - (kisses like wine)" is a beautiful phrase .. very apropos of vintners and farmers. (I'm not getting into "breasts like towers" but use your imagination.)

[LadyGarnetRose]

Yeah. Because I have two bibles. One from Catholic church and one from an American Standard one. Both have different books inside. So when people say it's in the bible I always have to ask which one?

Neither of those make the grade to a Jew. Really.


The JPS is secondary and only useful when speaking and sharing with those that do no know hebrew.



http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0.htm has the Hebrew and Aramaic.




The English is still the JPS

[Coexist]

Lust after our mate...

It's not Lust after our mate...


But Lust ONLY after our mate.

Think about it. Really

Honestly look at your life

and think about it.

What does my life have to do with it? Besides, this is in a holy book that speaks of men having hundreds of wives and concubines. I honestly don't get the relevance of the book, according to your post. It's way out of place.

[Coexist]

This literature was written to and for an ancient agricultural/animal husbandry/nomadic people. Of course the language is one that appealed to them that they spoke and/or could easily associate with .. and, having been nomadic and not evolved, I have no doubt those early Hebrews were a right lusty people out there in the desert - what's wrong with that? Why else do you think G-d would caution 'everything in moderation?'

To understand the writings, look at the people, the places, the times, the ways of living and what was happening. "kisses like honey - (kisses like wine)" is a beautiful phrase .. very apropos of vintners and farmers. (I'm not getting into "breasts like towers" but use your imagination.)

Yeah I understand this... but of the hundreds of books to go through, to choose which ones would make up the Bible, I don't get why this one would make it. Like I said above, it just seems very out of place.

[LadyGarnetRose]

What does my life have to do with it? Besides, this is in a holy book that speaks of men having hundreds of wives and concubines. I honestly don't get the relevance of the book, according to your post. It's way out of place.

It's not out of place.

Please re-read what I said.

[spike]

It's not out of place for the time and people for whom it was written and who wrote it, Rachel. These books are full of life's lessons. It's our job to find those lessons, learn them and put them to work in our lives today. Life/experience is about gaining knowledge and what to do with that knowledge once we have it .. that's called wisdom. i.e. Wisdom of the Ages???

Yeah I understand this... but of the hundreds of books to go through, to choose which ones would make up the Bible, I don't get why this one would make it. Like I said above, it just seems very out of place.

This post has been edited by spike: Sep 25 2008, 07:38 AM

[Murteza]

wisdom behind opression u mean?

[MARANATHA!]

If anyone is really interested in a Christian perspective on Song of Songs, since the OP has been posted on the Christian Forum,
here is the intro to it:

http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/songs/intro.htm

[Coexist]

Taken from the first paragraph of your link, Sraph...

The Lord is the Lover and his people are the beloved.

I don't buy that. Why would God describe his people in such a manner?

[Jim]

I second that Rachel.

Why would God speak in terms of sexual, sensual or erotic lust?

[MARANATHA!]

Taken from the first paragraph of your link, Sraph...



I don't buy that. Why would God describe his people in such a manner?

Rachel and Jim,
Throughout not only the OT, but also the NT, the relationship between God and His people is described using the IMAGERY of marriage. Of course it has nothing to do with the biology of human marital sexual relations , but the covenant between God and His people is described using the covenant relationship of marriage. We are talking of spiritual things, not physical things, but God speaks to us using what we can relate to, so often He will use the imagery of our human relationships. And in this case it is marriage.

We, His people must love Him with all our hearts and all our minds and all our souls, and cleave to Him alone and be one with Him, just as a man and a woman join to make one flesh. (Matthew 22:37,Genesis 2:24)



Whereas Song of Songs describes the ideal relationship between a lover and His beloved, more often than not, the OT describes the relationship between God and His people as one between a loving,forgiving and long suffering spouse (God) towards a constantly unfaithful wife (Israel). Often the unfaithful wife is described as a harlot.
That was what the Book of the Prophet Hosea is all about.

You only have to look at some of the Scripture links that are used as examples in that link.

eg In Isaiah 54:
5 ² For he who has become your husband is your Maker; his name is the LORD of hosts; Your redeemer is the Holy One of Israel, called God of all the earth. 6 The LORD calls you back, like a wife forsaken and grieved in spirit, A wife married in youth and then cast off, says your God. 7 For a brief moment I abandoned you, but with great tenderness I will take you back. 8 In an outburst of wrath, for a moment I hid my face from you; But with enduring love I take pity on you, says the LORD, your redeemer.And the book of the Prophet Hosea is all about a faithful husband and a harlot wife.

Even in the NT Jesus refers to Himself as the Bridegroom who will come to take to Himself a pure and spotless Bride (the Church).

Matthew 25:

1 ¹ "Then ² the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 ³ Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3 The foolish ones, when taking their lamps, brought no oil with them, 4 but the wise brought flasks of oil with their lamps. 5 Since the bridegroom was long delayed, they all became drowsy and fell asleep. 6 At midnight, there was a cry, 'Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!'One has to understand the marriage customs of the times to understand what Jesus is saying a little better, and to understand the true meaning of the Eucharist.

When a man wanted to wed a maiden, and claim her for his own,he would go to the girls father and make an offer for her, telling her father what he would give as the bride price for her. If the father was agreeable to the contract, he would put it in front of the girl in the presence of the prospective bridegroom and pour a cup of wine. If she drank from the cup, it meant she accepted the marriage, and she wore a veil from that day forward to signify that she was set apart for husband and belonged to him alone

The bridegroom would then go away for about a year to prepare a place for his bride, and in that time she would prepare herself for her bridegroom. Usually the room the groom would prepare was a room added to his fathers house, and when this place was ready, he would come back to claim his bride. There would be a marriage feast and then he would lead her into his house as his bride.

It is in this context that Jesus says in John 14:

2 In my Father's house there are many dwelling places. If there were not, would I have told you that I am going to prepare a place for you? 3 ³ And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back again and take you to myself, so that where I am you also may be.In Revelation, Jesus speaks about the time when He will come to claim His Bride (the Church) and the wedding feast of the Lamb who is the Bridegroom and His Bride who is the Church and the heavenly Jerusalem:

Revelation 19:
7 Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory. For the wedding day of the Lamb ³ has come, his bride has made herself ready. 8 She was allowed to wear a bright, clean linen garment." (The linen represents the righteous deeds of the holy ones.) ⁴ 9 Then the angel said to me, "Write this: Blessed ⁵ are those who have been called to the wedding feast of the Lamb." And he said to me, "These words are true; they come from God."
Revelation 21:

2 I also saw the holy city, a new Jerusalem, ³ coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Angie.

This post has been edited by MARANATHA!: Sep 27 2008, 05:32 AM

[Coexist]

I've heard of God's love for his 'children' described as parental, unconditional like a parent's love. To then describe it as a marriage, to give the sexual tones, makes that sound very uncomfortable.

I don't believe the SOS was intended for this purpose when it was written. It just does not make sense... A man to a woman, ok, but not God to His people.

I don't understand how this was chosen as one of the Books.

[MARANATHA!]

I've heard of God's love for his 'children' described as parental, unconditional like a parent's love. To then describe it as a marriage, to give the sexual tones, makes that sound very uncomfortable.

I don't believe the SOS was intended for this purpose when it was written. It just does not make sense... A man to a woman, ok, but not God to His people.

I don't understand how this was chosen as one of the Books.

I can understand why some would be rather confused as to why this book is included in the Bible, especially if you are accustomed to the literature of the Quran as being representative of sacred literature and an example of how God would speak to his people.

To understand how Song of Songs would be considered inspired, is to understand how we believe God communicates to us through the Judeo-Christian sacred literature. The Bible is a collection of books, and each book employs different literary devices, but all these devices are used to communicate spiritual truths from God. In the case of Song of Songs, we see how God inspires poetry to communicate to us of His great love and longing for us.
This book has long been part of Jewish sacred literature and to understand why we Christians also include it in our Bible, you would first need to know why it is one of the books read during the Jewish Passover.
It is at the first Passover where Israel first understands their God's great love for them and how He longs to bring them to Himself with a great longing.
In Song of Songs, this longing is described in terms of the sort of longing that a lover would have for his beloved and ow he yearns for the day when he can lead her into his home as his wife and make her truly his.
The allegorical reading of the lover, the King, representing God and the beloved, Israel, has widely been accepted since even before the 1st century AD.

Rashi in his commentary says:
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/...h/Chapter-1.htm

The Song of Songs, which is Solomon's Our Rabbis taught (Shevu. 35b): Every Solomon (for they were at a loss to explain why Scripture did not mention his father, as it did in Proverbs and Ecclesiastes) mentioned in the Song of Songs is sacred (refers to God), the King to Whom peace (שָׁלוֹם) belongs. It is a song that is above all songs, which was recited to the Holy One, blessed be He, by His congregation and His people, the congregation of Israel. Rabbi Akiva said: The world was never as worthy as on the day that the Song of Songs was given to Israel, for all the Writings are holy, whereas the Song of Songs is the holiest of the holy. Rabbi Eleazar ben Azariah said: To what can this be compared? To a king who took a se'ah of wheat and gave it to a baker. He said to him, "Extract for me so much fine flour, so much bran, so much coarse bran, and you shall produce enough fine flour for one white loaf, sifted and superior." So are all the Writings holy and the Song of Songs the holiest of the holy, for it is all comprised of fear of Heaven and the acceptance of the yoke of His kingdom.
Angie.

This post has been edited by MARANATHA!: Sep 30 2008, 02:37 AM

[History]

I second that Rachel.

Why would God speak in terms of sexual, sensual or erotic lust?

The Torah is written for our human understanding.
Thus metaphors that we can relate to as human beings are found throughout His Message to us.

Respectfully,
History