Modernizing of Islam, Modernist Options

[Jim]

Recently, we had a few trolls sign up for the forum with the intent to defame, declare takfir (declare us non-Muslims) on us for sympathizing with kufar (non-Muslims) and disrupt the forum. Alhamdulillah, Allah has protected us from their sin.

In the process, one of the accusation levied against us was that we were "modernist". Somehow, being called a "modernist" was a bad thing

We were modernist as opposed to what? The opposite to "modern" is "primitive". So "primitive" is better than "modern"? By this logic we should be living in a cave as opposed to a house.

What is "modern"? It is relating to, or having the characteristics of the present or most recent period of development.

So, are we to believe that "primitive", which is having the characteristics of the past, is better than modern?

Look at the world we live in. Instead of using a stick we use a toothbrush. Instead of riding a camel, we use a car. Instead of hunting and gathering with stone tipped arrows and grass weaved baskets we go to the supermarket.

The hallmark of the Islamic religion is its pliability to the times. Islamic Law, according to the Quran and Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh) allows for this pliability in everything except one thing, the religious components of our lifestyle. This fact is evident if one studies the seerah of the Prophet (pbuh) over the course of his life and the lives of the sahabbah during the first 100 years of the Islamic Empire, which is the rough timeframe in which our scholars extrapilate much of the rulings of Shariah. Many more rulings of shariah are directed at the changing times and often do not even have a basis in Quran or Sunnah because the situations in modern times have changed and have not been experienced by the Prophet (pbuh) or the sahabbah.

For example, in modern times, we face issues of the harvesting of human stem cells from new born babies to correct diseases that may exist later in the childs life. Is this acceptable in Islam? Well, the Prophet (pbuh) and the Sahabbah did not experience science on this scale and such things were unheard of in their time. Thus, our scholars work out a morally acceptable shariah on the topic. They can draw off of what we do know of Quran and Sunnah that is totally unrelated to the topic in conjunction with consultation of modern scientists who are expert in the field and apply it to make a ruling.

Islam is not a primitive religion, nor is it meant to be. Islam is for all time.

People who call us modernists because we stand for progress in society according to Islamic values are missing the purpose of Islam. Islam is not a religion. It is an entire way of life that includes religious doctrine. It regulates much more than religion. Religion is perhaps 10% of Islam. The remaining 90% is Economy, Science, Governance, Military, Diplomacy and many many other things.

These "primitive" Muslims make the 10% seem like 90%. It is these types that wish to rule a country without knowing how to build roads, schools, colleges, using diplomacy to avoid warfare, establishing justice systems for all people (muslim and not), bringing economic prosperity and many other essential aspects of our lives.

I have seen these "primitive" Muslims tout the Taliban as the model Islamic government. Yet, if you look closely, there is a VAST difference between such a rogue group and an Islamic State as the Prophet (pbuh) established and the Sahabbah built upon. So vast, it is virtually unrecognizable if it wasnt for the people observing the 10% of their religion; ie the religious aspects of Islam.

Following Islam is not just in the ritual 10% or even in the spiritual aspects of those rituals.

To build upon this argument, even before the advent of our complete religious system (the 10%) the Prophet (pbuh) established Islam as a system of Justice. It was this system of Justice that won the hearts of many local Arab tribes that once opposed Muslims bitterly.

I propose that there is no such thing as "modern" or "modernization" of Islam. There is either "progress" or "no progress". If we fail to establish all aspects of Islamic society and government to include the religious aspects then there is no progress. These "primitive" muslims propose that we establish the 10% while neglecting the remaining. They propose that we do it by violent force if necessary. However, if they dont already have the necessities of society established (the 90%) then all they propose is religious oppression by use of violence.

On the other hand, if the necessities of society are already present, then there will be no need for violent force. There will already be the means by which to affect change in society through peaceful means. Even then, the "primitives" will lack patience with the already established systems and wish to vilently overthrow it as they have tried in many Muslim populated states.

Islamic rule must come from the people if it is to work. The example of this is in the lifetime of the Prophet (pbuh) and the sahabbah. Islamic rule worked because people wanted it and they accepted the established government and worked within the framework of their government to affect change through peaceful means, like voting, lobbying, diplomacy, etc. Islamic rule cannot work if brought about by violent upheaval and the populations of our regions not accepting the newly established violent dictatorship.

This is the difference. A government that comes to power by violent rebellion will supress its opposition violently and its rule will always be challenged. A government that is chosen by the people will naturally last longer as it has the blessing of the majority of the population.

So, are we modernists? No, we just follow Islam as the Prophet (pbuh) taught with his greater wisdom than the proponents of "primitivism" in Islam.

What they preach is Islam in the stone ages, living in caves with guns made in the USA or Russia. They will never be able to produce a bar of soap, grow a society, avoid tribal warfare, educate their chidren beyond paroting verses of the quran without knowing the meaning, etc.

You can give a man tawheed and rituals, but if he cannot live peacefully, without fear of oppression, feed his family, educate his sons and daughters, wash himself properly, go to work, build something, etc. then Islam means little to him. Perhaps only 10%.

[NEWUSER]

Great post, Jim. Pointing out how some people tend to live in the past was an important point. I think you have to admit most of the living in the past mentality stems from some teachings by various schools of thoughts and not necessarily because people do not move-on and get with the-times.

[Coexist]

Excellent points, Jim! Islam isn't just for one time frame. The world is, and always has been, a changing place.

Yeah it's great how they 'accuse' us of being modernist Muslims, as if it's a bad thing, all the while they are using their computers (which Muhammed saws didn't approve of) to come in and do some major sinning by attacking us.

[Jim]

Great post, Jim. Pointing out how some people tend to live in the past was an important point. I think you have to admit most of the living in the past mentality stems from some teachings by various schools of thoughts and not necessarily because people do not move-on and get with the-times.

shukrun newuser Yes, I agree. This was a tragedy in the past among us that divided our Ummah severely. The continuation in these traditions naturally will bring about recurring problems that continued in the past. History tends to repeat itself. This is one reason i dont subscribe to one particular school of thought. I am just a Muslim, thats it.

[Kayak]

Nice post Jim. People really need to understand --->

The hallmark of the Islamic religion is its pliability to the times.

Your entire post was really important.
Most people make it seem as if our time has to be literally nit-picky exactly like how it were during the Prophet and the first few generations after the Prophet. Thats highly impossible.

In the recent invasion on this forum, I recall a few people saying that we all are ignorant for being American, solely because we reside here in the United States, and live with the "kaafir". Islam is the type of religion that you can follow and live amongst the non-Muslims peacefully, and try to set good examples, get involved in the society, so it could encourage better relations and understanding between us all.

Islam is also a dawah religion too, so it makes absolutely no sense to hate everyone who isn't a Muslim. Actually they also seem to hate the Muslims who don't agree with them too. All my life, I've never come across that kind of hateful teaching. These recent people are the kinds that give Islam and Muslims a bad name. They are counter-productive to all the efforts that hard-working Muslims have put into improving the image of Islam.

This post has been edited by Kayak: Aug 15 2008, 06:01 PM

[Jim]

well said Kayak

[jazain]

again, jim, i think we go back to people who take religion to the extreme. who add their own wild views to the mix with islam. so i dont think there is a real modernization of islam going on here (as we were falsely accused). you just have the group of people who think we should live in a cave, thobe, kufi, sewak, no running water, riding the camel. so yes, sure. thats the only modernisation going on. but you can bet those same people who think we need to stay back 14oo years in the ways of life have a car, a home with air conditioning, brush their teeth with a toothbrush, use a toilet plus get a massage once in a while.

problem is, the very people that were condemning us the other day were running off at the mouth about things they dont even believe themselves. their aim was to attack no matter how.

the worst of the posters is a horror anyway. i used to read her threads about loving Allah and living by the hadith but then i read some of her posts at another forum that were horribly evil words. actually most of them directed toward rachel. i could envision sharp fangs with blood dripping while i read some of her posts. it was hard for me to connect the dots...in Wi, patient, gently chiding people about not being a good muslim then in the other forum vicious and cruel.

so her words held no merit for me the other day. it just let me know that she is worse than i ever thought.

[yishmael]

Excellent points, Jim! Islam isn't just for one time frame. The world is, and always has been, a changing place.

Yeah it's great how they 'accuse' us of being modernist Muslims, as if it's a bad thing, all the while they are using their computers (which Muhammed saws didn't approve of) to come in and do some major sinning by attacking us.

Before we condemn the fundamentalists, it's important to understand their perspective.

It is a natural human reaction to stress and mistreatment to wish for a mythical golden age. Social scientists call this retro-culture. You can see it today in the 1980s clothing people of my generation (in North America) are dressing their children, for example. We look back on our own childhood as a mythologized beacon and want to recreate it. Never mind that there were wars in the 1980s, unemployment, trade deficits (Japan was our enemy then, rather than China). We don't remember those things. We only remember the "good old days".

I remember the retro-culture of the 1980s. Back then it was the 1950s, and when we were mythologizing the golden years we didn't remember things like segregation, institutionalized misogyny, etc. either.

Muslims look back to the caliphate and want to recreate it. It's not an intellectual pursuit, but a reactionary impulse.

[yishmael]

actually most of them directed toward rachel.

What kind of chucklehead could dislike rachel?

I suppose any kind of chucklehead could, but it's hard to envision such a thing. Rachel's the coolest.

[Coexist]

What kind of chucklehead could dislike rachel?

I suppose any kind of chucklehead could, but it's hard to envision such a thing. Rachel's the coolest.

Awww your just the awesomest! Her feelings towards me are mutual, though

[Gold]

Great Post Mr. Coates!

As a matter of fact, if a little bit more than 50% of our well-educated Muslim scholars think that same way, then we will find at least one scholar in each Islamic forum online, absorbing the views of this or that, thus building some sort of Modern curriculum of da'awah, one that is pretty much aware with not only the misconceptions that arise everywhere in the world about Islam, but also a somehow newer approach to the entry point of Islam into the hearts of Millions, and into the hearts of Muslims rather than non-muslims.. because from where I stand right now, Muslims need more da'awah efforts.. BIG TIME!

You see, the concept here is "Modernization", but it is actually nothing more than intelligence and wisdom.. the simple act of Awareness and reflection we - as Believers - have been asked to do.. and WHY have we been asked to do so?? Because simply this message from Allah is directed towards those who "detect" it, and those who detect it should work upon it, to provide the rest of the masses with the means to understand and live peacefully, because the masses cannot do it on their own, because this is life! not everyone has the same abilities, and not everyone has the same awareness to do their own things without needing any help!

Living in the past is not my version of creation.. we were created to obey and use our heads while obeying, to watch out while living, to be careful when it comes to others around us, because we have not been created in this life alone, there is a reason for having a society around us, could it be for the best of us? Well lately i've been having my doubts about this.. lol.. but patience can take u a long way, reminding myself before y'all.. mehh

Neways, brilliant post Jim, I really enjoyed reading it, and saying to myself "that's what i'm talking about" and "right ON brother!" every other line

cheers

This post has been edited by Gold: Aug 19 2008, 02:16 AM

[Murteza]

Muslims look back to the caliphate and want to recreate it. It's not an intellectual pursuit, but a reactionary impulse.

a false reactionary impulse lead in false subjugation and fascism leaning. any type of "Khilafiat' frankly, does not represent our indigenous islam tenets how to bring social justice. on the other hand, it again just turn in another falsely assume 'divine government' that control over masses to serve their natural appetite of power which ended in elitism and proletariat sentiment. or despotism, perhaps

[Jim]

As a matter of fact, if a little bit more than 50% of our well-educated Muslim scholars think that same way, then we will find at least one scholar in each Islamic forum online, absorbing the views of this or that, thus building some sort of Modern curriculum of da'awah, one that is pretty much aware with not only the misconceptions that arise everywhere in the world about Islam, but also a somehow newer approach to the entry point of Islam into the hearts of Millions, and into the hearts of Muslims rather than non-muslims.. because from where I stand right now, Muslims need more da'awah efforts.. BIG TIME!

I completely agree.

Thanks bro

[algebra]

I have come to believe that I consider myself muslim, but completely reject all the teachings of muslims.

The Sunnah I have realised grossly misrepresents the character of the prophet, because it is simply the observations of people, and not necessarily the explanations of the prophet.

We are left not really understanding the intentions of the prophets, simply having a recording of his actions.

The intentions and explanations have come from other people, as a result the religion that is islam today grossly misrepresents what islam was to the prophet.

[Gold]

I have come to believe that I consider myself muslim, but completely reject all the teachings of muslims.

The Sunnah I have realised grossly misrepresents the character of the prophet, because it is simply the observations of people, and not necessarily the explanations of the prophet.

We are left not really understanding the intentions of the prophets, simply having a recording of his actions.

The intentions and explanations have come from other people, as a result the religion that is islam today grossly misrepresents what islam was to the prophet.

Well, sis that's partly true.. but let me add something here..

There are always ways to follow whatever you want to follow.. for example u mention Sunni ways.. meaning that you follow the Model of the prophet's life.. that's what we have been taught, is that what u r saying..

but let me tell u that we do not follow the prophet PBUH's life, we try to follow the way he lived his life, how he faced situations and how he managed the different matters of his responsibility.. as a matter of fact i have read books for Muslim scholars that talk about this same issue.. they don't blame "the teachings", they rather blame "the way the teachings are interpreted"..

there should be renewal of the essence by which Muslims think at all ages, because Islam is for all ages.. not just for a number of people living in a desert some one and a half century ago..

Cheers

[Holly]

Recently, we had a few trolls sign up for the forum with the intent to defame, declare takfir on us for sympathizing with kufar and disrupt the forum. Alhamdulillah, Allah has protected us from their sin.

In the process, one of the accusation levied against us was that we were "modernist". Somehow, being called a "modernist" was a bad thing

We were modernist as opposed to what? The opposite to "modern" is "primitive". So "primitive" is better than "modern"? By this logic we should be living in a cave as opposed to a house.

What is "modern"? It is relating to, or having the characteristics of the present or most recent period of development.

So, are we to believe that "primitive", which is having the characteristics of the past, is better than modern?

Look at the world we live in. Instead of using a stick we use a toothbrush. Instead of riding a camel, we use a car. Instead of hunting and gathering with stone tipped arrows and grass weaved baskets we go to the supermarket.

The hallmark of the Islamic religion is its pliability to the times. Islamic Law, according to the Quran and Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh) allows for this pliability in everything except one thing, the religious components of our lifestyle. This fact is evident if one studies the seerah of the Prophet (pbuh) over the course of his life and the lives of the sahabbah during the first 100 years of the Islamic Empire, which is the rough timeframe in which our scholars extrapilate much of the rulings of Shariah. Many more rulings of shariah are directed at the changing times and often do not even have a basis in Quran or Sunnah because the situations in modern times have changed and have not been experienced by the Prophet (pbuh) or the sahabbah.

For example, in modern times, we face issues of the harvesting of human stem cells from new born babies to correct diseases that may exist later in the childs life. Is this acceptable in Islam? Well, the Prophet (pbuh) and the Sahabbah did not experience science on this scale and such things were unheard of in their time. Thus, our scholars work out a morally acceptable shariah on the topic. They can draw off of what we do know of Quran and Sunnah that is totally unrelated to the topic in conjunction with consultation of modern scientists who are expert in the field and apply it to make a ruling.

Islam is not a primitive religion, nor is it meant to be. Islam is for all time.

People who call us modernists because we stand for progress in society according to Islamic values are missing the purpose of Islam. Islam is not a religion. It is an entire way of life that includes religious doctrine. It regulates much more than religion. Religion is perhaps 10% of Islam. The remaining 90% is Economy, Science, Governance, Military, Diplomacy and many many other things.

These "primitive" Muslims make the 10% seem like 90%. It is these types that wish to rule a country without knowing how to build roads, schools, colleges, using diplomacy to avoid warfare, establishing justice systems for all people (muslim and not), bringing economic prosperity and many other essential aspects of our lives.

I have seen these "primitive" Muslims tout the Taliban as the model Islamic government. Yet, if you look closely, there is a VAST difference between such a rogue group and an Islamic State as the Prophet (pbuh) established and the Sahabbah built upon. So vast, it is virtually unrecognizable if it wasnt for the people observing the 10% of their religion; ie the religious aspects of Islam.

Following Islam is not just in the ritual 10% or even in the spiritual aspects of those rituals.

To build upon this argument, even before the advent of our complete religious system (the 10%) the Prophet (pbuh) established Islam as a system of Justice. It was this system of Justice that won the hearts of many local Arab tribes that once opposed Muslims bitterly.

I propose that there is no such thing as "modern" or "modernization" of Islam. There is either "progress" or "no progress". If we fail to establish all aspects of Islamic society and government to include the religious aspects then there is no progress. These "primitive" muslims propose that we establish the 10% while neglecting the remaining. They propose that we do it by violent force if necessary. However, if they dont already have the necessities of society established (the 90%) then all they propose is religious oppression by use of violence.

On the other hand, if the necessities of society are already present, then there will be no need for violent force. There will already be the means by which to affect change in society through peaceful means. Even then, the "primitives" will lack patience with the already established systems and wish to vilently overthrow it as they have tried in many Muslim populated states.

Islamic rule must come from the people if it is to work. The example of this is in the lifetime of the Prophet (pbuh) and the sahabbah. Islamic rule worked because people wanted it and they accepted the established government and worked within the framework of their government to affect change through peaceful means, like voting, lobbying, diplomacy, etc. Islamic rule cannot work if brought about by violent upheaval and the populations of our regions not accepting the newly established violent dictatorship.

This is the difference. A government that comes to power by violent rebellion will supress its opposition violently and its rule will always be challenged. A government that is chosen by the people will naturally last longer as it has the blessing of the majority of the population.

So, are we modernists? No, we just follow Islam as the Prophet (pbuh) taught with his greater wisdom than the proponents of "primitivism" in Islam.

What they preach is Islam in the stone ages, living in caves with guns made in the USA or Russia. They will never be able to produce a bar of soap, grow a society, avoid tribal warfare, educate their chidren beyond paroting verses of the quran without knowing the meaning, etc.

You can give a man tawheed and rituals, but if he cannot live peacefully, without fear of oppression, feed his family, educate his sons and daughters, wash himself properly, go to work, build something, etc. then Islam means little to him. Perhaps only 10%.

Thank GOD!!!!! SOMEONE said it....someo one besides me said it!!!!!!!

I have been having these thoughts all along thinking I must not be Muslim because you know I use a toothbrush/telescope, don't talk in a prayer all the time and don't believe in regressing instead of progressing.

Thank you Jim for saying what needed to be said. You and a few lovely women here are giving me hope.

I agree with EVERYTHING you said...EVERYTHING.(that's odd for me)

[Holly]

Nice post Jim. People really need to understand ---> Your entire post was really important.
Most people make it seem as if our time has to be literally nit-picky exactly like how it were during the Prophet and the first few generations after the Prophet. Thats highly impossible.

In the recent invasion on this forum, I recall a few people saying that we all are ignorant for being American, solely because we reside here in the United States, and live with the "kaafir". Islam is the type of religion that you can follow and live amongst the non-Muslims peacefully, and try to set good examples, get involved in the society, so it could encourage better relations and understanding between us all.

Islam is also a dawah religion too, so it makes absolutely no sense to hate everyone who isn't a Muslim. Actually they also seem to hate the Muslims who don't agree with them too. All my life, I've never come across that kind of hateful teaching. These recent people are the kinds that give Islam and Muslims a bad name. They are counter-productive to all the efforts that hard-working Muslims have put into improving the image of Islam.

My baby!!! You have matured so MUCH in the last two years and you have put into words a LOT of my exact feelings. I know you will succeed in life if you continue to think like this and always remember Religion is good so long as our INTENTIONS are too. You my dear W are in great standing with me.

[Murteza]

depends on how you define modernism itself...

[gothminister]

Nice post Jim. People really need to understand ---> Your entire post was really important.
Most people make it seem as if our time has to be literally nit-picky exactly like how it were during the Prophet and the first few generations after the Prophet. Thats highly impossible.

In the recent invasion on this forum, I recall a few people saying that we all are ignorant for being American, solely because we reside here in the United States, and live with the "kaafir". Islam is the type of religion that you can follow and live amongst the non-Muslims peacefully, and try to set good examples, get involved in the society, so it could encourage better relations and understanding between us all.

Islam is also a dawah religion too, so it makes absolutely no sense to hate everyone who isn't a Muslim. Actually they also seem to hate the Muslims who don't agree with them too. All my life, I've never come across that kind of hateful teaching. These recent people are the kinds that give Islam and Muslims a bad name. They are counter-productive to all the efforts that hard-working Muslims have put into improving the image of Islam.

Ohohohohoh,,, I support you all the way Kayak!! And Jim too I dont like the word "modernist", MUSLIM'S JUST MUSLIM!

[Honu]

how do you define it teza?