Suicide Bombing Options

[Jim]

I was inclined to make a contraversial statement (among the Muslim community) in another thread. This is a tough sell for Muslims and saying it, on other forums would get me branded a hypocrite or apostate. Here is my comment:

Like I always say about the Israeli/Palestinian situation. If you feel you have been reduced to committing the sin of suicide and murder to fight back then you would be better off accepting occupation.
Better to live life under occupation and go to jennah (heaven) and murder/suicide and get the worst in hellfire.

I thought it a good idea to discuss the issue of suicide bombing among Muslims and how it affects all of our communities so I started this thread. Most Muslim forums ban this topic, but we will hit it head on!

Anyone care to comment on my comment and get this thread moving?

[elji]

I was inclined to make a contraversial statement (among the Muslim community) in another thread. This is a tough sell for Muslims and saying it, on other forums would get me branded a hypocrite or apostate. Here is my comment:


I thought it a good idea to discuss the issue of suicide bombing among Muslims and how it affects all of our communities so I started this thread. Most Muslim forums ban this topic, but we will hit it head on!

Anyone care to comment on my comment and get this thread moving?

Suicide bombing i feel is justified under occupation. As the intention is not to commit the type of suicide that is forbidden in the Quran. As long as the target is not innocent.

[Jim]

I understand fighting for freedom etc (of course I believe this should be with an organized army). But isnt Allah clear in the Quran about suicide?

There are a few aspects that I seem to have trouble with suicide bombings.

1) Targeting of innocents
2) Act of intentionally killing oneself in the process. (is against Quran)
3) It is typically vigilante Jihad groups that carry them out

[elji]

I understand fighting for freedom etc (of course I believe this should be with an organized army). But isnt Allah clear in the Quran about suicide?

There are a few aspects that I seem to have trouble with suicide bombings.

1) Targeting of innocents
2) Act of intentionally killing oneself in the process. (is against Quran)
3) It is typically vigilante Jihad groups that carry them out

1) of course killing innocent is totally wrong. But not all suicide bombs are targetted towards innocents

2) Suicide Bombings/Missions

"O you who believe, do not consume your money between you unjustly, except through a trade which is mutually agreed by you. And do not kill yourselves; God is Merciful towards you. And whoever does so out of animosity and transgression, We will cast him to a Fire; and this for God is very easy." (Quran 4:29-30)

Suicide bombings/attacks are only permitted if they are being done as part of a battle plan or out of battle necessity and are not carried out as an act of despair against God or from life (i.e. not being done out of "animosity, or transgression").

Examples where this strategy may be used are enemy targets that are heavily fortified/armored and where a "conventional" attack would cost the lives of many Resistance Fighters and inflict few enemy losses.

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No one should accept and live with opression/occupation, especially if it means being humiliated and degraded on a daily basis (Palestine)

This post has been edited by elji: Mar 25 2008, 06:04 AM

[Jim]

Suicide bombings/attacks are only permitted if they are being done as part of a battle plan or out of battle necessity and are not carried out as an act of despair against God or from life (i.e. not being done out of "animosity, or transgression").

thanks elji!

I understand the issue of self sacrifice as it exists among every soldier of an army. They will take a bullet for their friends and in hard times even rush in open machine gun fire to save a buddy or take a grenade to a fortified hard target on a battle field.

Suicide bombings by Muslims are very much different than this. Self sacrifice is not intentionally strapping a bomb to yourself and walking into a target. It is in the heat of the moment and not pre-planned, video taped before hand, holding a Quran and ranting, etc.

The problem today is that no suicide bombings are part of a battle plan carried out by trained solders sacrificing themselves to overcome a strong enemy. The recruiting is not among soldiers in an Islamic army (nor even among insurgent groups). It is among the desparate members of society, women and men. You have people who are recruiting (Islamic Jihad, hamas, taliban, al qaida) and not carrying out these attacks themselves. They recruit common folks with no better thing to live for than to die with false promises of a better life in Jennah. Furthermore, most suicide attacks do not target hard targets but civilians. On top of that 72% only kill themselves and dont ever reach their targets.

If it is part of a battle plan then that indicates that an organized army, whose members are recruited, trained and controlled by an organized diplomatics system (ie islamic state or Kilapha prefereably), would be carrying out military tactics of aggression. In Islam an organized military has always been used to wage war tactics and an Islamic government has always controlled the military.

This marriage between military and diplomatic system in Islam is vital to wage war and totally end hostilities at the appropriate times. If you have hundreds of different people and groups waging independent vigilante wars then when a favorable agreement is reached among even the majority of them with the enemy, the others can completely put peace agreements off track by failing to abide by the agreements.

Thus is the cycle of violence with Israel and one reason why the peace process and talks are constantly put on hold.

[Coexist]

1) of course killing innocent is totally wrong. But not all suicide bombs are targetted towards innocents

2) Suicide Bombings/Missions

"O you who believe, do not consume your money between you unjustly, except through a trade which is mutually agreed by you. And do not kill yourselves; God is Merciful towards you. And whoever does so out of animosity and transgression, We will cast him to a Fire; and this for God is very easy." (Quran 4:29-30)

Suicide bombings/attacks are only permitted if they are being done as part of a battle plan or out of battle necessity and are not carried out as an act of despair against God or from life (i.e. not being done out of "animosity, or transgression").

Examples where this strategy may be used are enemy targets that are heavily fortified/armored and where a "conventional" attack would cost the lives of many Resistance Fighters and inflict few enemy losses.

------------------------
No one should accept and live with opression/occupation, especially if it means being humiliated and degraded on a daily basis (Palestine)

This brings up a question about hadith, then. I don't know the number, or anything about it really, but it's a story I've heard quite a few times since I've been Muslim. Maybe you will know the one I'm speaking of.

There was a man who was injured/sick, and was in unbearable pain. He fell on his sword, or something, and killed himself... so when someone asked the Prophet (pbuh) about this man, he said that the man was in hell.

This wasn't a case of war, right? This man was just unable to cope with his pain, and knew he would be dead anyway in a short time. Yet he was still supposedly in hell.

[elji]

thanks elji!

I understand the issue of self sacrifice as it exists among every soldier of an army. They will take a bullet for their friends and in hard times even rush in open machine gun fire to save a buddy or take a grenade to a fortified hard target on a battle field.

Suicide bombings by Muslims are very much different than this. Self sacrifice is not intentionally strapping a bomb to yourself and walking into a target. It is in the heat of the moment and not pre-planned, video taped before hand, holding a Quran and ranting, etc.

The problem today is that no suicide bombings are part of a battle plan carried out by trained solders sacrificing themselves to overcome a strong enemy. The recruiting is not among soldiers in an Islamic army (nor even among insurgent groups). It is among the desparate members of society, women and men. You have people who are recruiting (Islamic Jihad, hamas, taliban, al qaida) and not carrying out these attacks themselves. They recruit common folks with no better thing to live for than to die with false promises of a better life in Jennah. Furthermore, most suicide attacks do not target hard targets but civilians. On top of that 72% only kill themselves and dont ever reach their targets.

If it is part of a battle plan then that indicates that an organized army, whose members are recruited, trained and controlled by an organized diplomatics system (ie islamic state or Kilapha prefereably), would be carrying out military tactics of aggression. In Islam an organized military has always been used to wage war tactics and an Islamic government has always controlled the military.

This marriage between military and diplomatic system in Islam is vital to wage war and totally end hostilities at the appropriate times. If you have hundreds of different people and groups waging independent vigilante wars then when a favorable agreement is reached among even the majority of them with the enemy, the others can completely put peace agreements off track by failing to abide by the agreements.

Thus is the cycle of violence with Israel and one reason why the peace process and talks are constantly put on hold.

You do have a point. This does happen and many a time the target of such attacks are innocents who dont have anything to do with the conflict and are caught in the middle. In such situations it is wrong.

[Jon]

Elji,
Not only is it against your religion and not only is it just plain wrong but it is dumb. I mean come on. It really is a moronic plan for war. For instance can you name one country who won a war by using this method? Kudos to Jim for having the apples to expose this non sense.


God Bless,

Jon

[Bloc]

I generally agree with Jim about this.

Also, I understand your point Elji, but the people who are typically willing to carry out a suicide bombing (even if it is against a military target), are extremely desperate. So to me, there is some doubt about whether or not this is acceptable even in the way that you describe it. After all, if these people had the power, I doubt they would be sacrificing themselves in the first place.

From my perspective, I understand why Palestinians will go to such lengths, they see it as one of their few options to lash out at a much more powerful oppressor. However, I would caution them in the strongest terms never to do something like this, especially never to target civilians. Unfortunately, when you're that deep in despair, you may not behave rationally.

[Billy]

I think a large part of the problem stems from how guilt and innocence is defined. Obviously someone decided that simply living in America or London makes one no longer innocent and therefore are valid targets. I can understand to a degree the concept of defending your own from an opressor but the definitions are so fuzzy any act of violence can be justified.

I heard somewhere that the families of the bombers sometimes get given money. Is that true?

[Bloc]

I heard somewhere that the families of the bombers sometimes get given money. Is that true?

I've heard similar stories. It isn't inconceivable that suicide bombers are offered some sort of financial incentive to improve the lives of their family. When things look bleak, some people may think the only way they can provide for their loved ones is through a way such as this.

[Jim]

I've heard similar stories. It isn't inconceivable that suicide bombers are offered some sort of financial incentive to improve the lives of their family. When things look bleak, some people may think the only way they can provide for their loved ones is through a way such as this.

I heard this a lot in the media. Especially around the time just before we invaded Iraq. People was saying how evil Sadam was for doing this.

Even the USA has a policy of financially helping the families of criminals who relied on them financially but were arrested for some criminal activity leaving the family pennyless.

[Ameriki]

Salaam,

Well, I was searching for a thread like this, I knew it had been brought up before.. How is it Sunnah to intentionally kill yourself for any reason? If this isn't twisting the Quran, then I don't know what is.. In what way has these idiots who blow themselves up helped the Ummah in any way? All it has done is gave symphaty to those who fought against muslims.. The point of war is to stay alive, if every muslim decided to strap a bomb to themselves, there would be no more muslims.. This is irrational and just plain stupid.. I wonder if the Prophet (SAW) ever twisted His beliefs in the Art of War? No... Where did the Prophet (SAW) ever say it was ok to kill yourself for any reason at all? It doesnt exsist.. These so-called "Muslim" scholars have brainwashed the minds of the youth into this Satanic theology.. The reasoning, "Well, muslims can't defend themselves, because the enemy has better weapons," is nothing but the whispers of Satan himself.. How many times was the Prophet (SAW) out-numbered, out-gunned? And did he ever waiver from his ethics of War?

Suicide Bombers don't put their faith in God (SWT) when the odds are against them... They are acting out in desperation, like they can't defeat an enemy who out-numbers them.. This isn't faith in God (SWT).. Look at Moses (PBUH), or David (PBUH), how many times were they outnumbered and defeated their enemies? This stupidity isnt the way of the Prophets (PBUT)

This post has been edited by Issa Raheem: Aug 17 2008, 02:26 PM

[Honu]

Suicide Bombers don't put their faith in God (SWT) when the odds are against them...

I haven't heard this statement before but it is brilliant!

[Firedragon]

1) of course killing innocent is totally wrong. But not all suicide bombs are targetted towards innocents

2) Suicide Bombings/Missions

"O you who believe, do not consume your money between you unjustly, except through a trade which is mutually agreed by you. And do not kill yourselves; God is Merciful towards you. And whoever does so out of animosity and transgression, We will cast him to a Fire; and this for God is very easy." (Quran 4:29-30)

Suicide bombings/attacks are only permitted if they are being done as part of a battle plan or out of battle necessity and are not carried out as an act of despair against God or from life (i.e. not being done out of "animosity, or transgression").

Examples where this strategy may be used are enemy targets that are heavily fortified/armored and where a "conventional" attack would cost the lives of many Resistance Fighters and inflict few enemy losses.

------------------------
No one should accept and live with opression/occupation, especially if it means being humiliated and degraded on a daily basis (Palestine)

Aight. In your hadith pls show me a place where the prophet sent a suicide bomber. Did any one randomly kill someone in a public place.

i know there is a hadith when the prophet ordered all women and children killed but do you really believe in that.

One often misused verse is 2:216;

"Fighting is prescribed for you and it is hateful to you. It is possible that you hate a thing that is good for you, and that you love a thing that is bad for. God knows and you do not know."

We find fighting commanded in these words:

Fight in the cause of God THOSE WHO FIGHT YOU. But DO NOT COMMIT EXCESSES. God does not love those who commit excesses. And slay them where encounter them. And expel them FROM WHERE THEY EXPELLED YOU. Unrest and oppression are worse than killing. Do not fight them at the sacred mosque, unless they fight you there. But IF THEY FIGHT YOU, slay them. Such is the reward of the disbelievers. (2:190-191

Knowing when to stop fighting is also critical and is dealt with by the Qur'an in no uncertain terms:

And fight them UNTIL THERE IS NO MORE UNREST AND OPPRESSION, and religion is for God.... But IF THEY LEAN TOWARD PEACE, YOU LEAN TOWARD PEACE and trust in God. He is the Hearer, the Knower (8:39, 61

fighting is allowed only against direct combatants

[Kayak]

Suicide isn't justified in Islam, even during an occupation of a country.

Suicide and murder are both major sins in Islam.

So when someone is committing suicide and murder at the same time, they're definitely going to Hell.

This post has been edited by Kayak: Aug 23 2008, 04:42 PM