Poverty in America Options

[MagnaCarta]

A thread to discuss Poverty in America...why we do we have poverty if we are the wealthiest nation in the world? (Or are we not really that wealthy...)How do you define poverty in a developed nation (vs. a third world nation)? What attitudes are prevalent in our nation toward those who are poor? What do we do for the poor? What do you think about our welfare system and welfare reform that targeted the poor? How much of poverty is a symptom of the economic sytem and how much is the fault of the one who is poor? What about generational poverty? What about faith based initiatives to aid the poor? What does your individual belief system teach you about the poor? Do you have any ideas about how to truly help the poor besides simply giving money? Are they all just lazy, stupid or drug addicted?

Pick a point and discuss...

[Kayak]

Real poverty is in India, China, Africa, most Asian countries etc.

Been to India many times myself. Its bad.

[MagnaCarta]

Real poverty is in India, China, Africa, most Asian countries etc.

Been to India many times myself. Its bad.

Ok, use that as a jumping off point for the topic which is Poverty in America. In comparison do you think we can actually say we have poverty? Is there any comparison at all? Or all ALL American's living a higher standard than those in these other nations.

Here is a handy reference on Third World Nations (definitions and indications).

http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/third_world.htm

We are not a third world nation so our 'poverty' would be different. But it is poverty none the less to those experiencing it. Perhaps being in a 'wealthy' nation makes it that much more of a social stigma than being in a nation where poverty is a national identifier. Perhaps not...

[Saif Ali Khan Fa...]

The poverty Olympics.

There are people living in "third world" poverty here in the US. I'm talking about people who have no running water, no electricity, who live in one room shacks, etc. Plus, even if a person isn't living in those conditions but is still in poverty as defined by the government is their poverty any less legitimate? I mean a person living in a housing project where the elevators don't work, where there are rats and roaches galore, criminal and drug elements everywhere isn't "really living in poverty"? What about a family living in Appalachia in some shack that most of us wouldn't dream of stepping in let alone living in?

[Kayak]

Ok, use that as a jumping off point for the topic which is Poverty in America. In comparison do you think we can actually say we have poverty? Is there any comparison at all? Or all ALL American's living a higher standard than those in these other nations.

Here is a handy reference on Third World Nations (definitions and indications).

http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/third_world.htm

We are not a third world nation so our 'poverty' would be different. But it is poverty none the less to those experiencing it. Perhaps being in a 'wealthy' nation makes it that much more of a social stigma than being in a nation where poverty is a national identifier. Perhaps not...

Yes, America does have poverty, but a different kind. Overall, other countries have it much worse than the US. So I really don't like to call it 'poverty'. Maybe the US is the better of the worst, in the poverty department. So yes, I do think that all americans do live better than people in other nations.

I noticed that most people here in poverty tend to be obese or overweight, while the ones in poverty in India look like they have skin stretched over their skeleton. Almost all of them in India have leprosy too. Ask for money or food with their limbs literally falling off.

Sorry if I seem that Im rambling, tired and stuff. Good thread though.

This post has been edited by Kayak: Jun 25 2008, 05:32 PM

[Kayak]

The poverty Olympics.

There are people living in "third world" poverty here in the US. I'm talking about people who have no running water, no electricity, who live in one room shacks, etc. Plus, even if a person isn't living in those conditions but is still in poverty as defined by the government is their poverty any less legitimate? I mean a person living in a housing project where the elevators don't work, where there are rats and roaches galore, criminal and drug elements everywhere isn't "really living in poverty"? What about a family living in Appalachia in some shack that most of us wouldn't dream of stepping in let alone living in?

omg.. I just realized you're Faith aka Scooby. welcome!! its me MedGirl. lol

I see your point. There are extreme cases here too, but on a smaller scale when compared to other countries.

This post has been edited by Kayak: Jun 25 2008, 09:20 PM

[jaba]

Poverty in America shouldn't exist with all the resources it has, but sadly it's the American government's lack of money management skills that are contributing to the rising unemployment and poverty levels. Bilions have been spent on a senseless war but how much has gone for programs to help those on skid road? So much money has gone to "the war on terror" but is there anything new out there to help families on welfare?? The divide between rich and poor in the States is so wide, it's unbelievable. The rich just want more $$$ and the poor are being kept that way by barely being able to get the necessities of life let alone go to school and aquire any skills.

This post has been edited by jaba: Jun 25 2008, 10:23 PM

[Honu]

Bilions have been spent on a senseless war but how much has gone for programs to help those on skid road? So much money has gone to "the war on terror" but is there anything new out there to help families on welfare??

TONS of money go into welfare programs everyday. So much is wasted and squandered it is sickening with too many of the financially inconvenienced sucking up the money that should go to the truly needy.What we need to do is stop the handouts and develop programs to get people off the federal tit.

[MagnaCarta]

TONS of money go into welfare programs everyday. So much is wasted and squandered it is sickening with too many of the financially inconvenienced sucking up the money that should go to the truly needy.What we need to do is stop the handouts and develop programs to get people off the federal tit.

Part of the weakness in the American system of addressing poverty is that they do not have a factual view of the lives and the circumstances that cause it in individual lives. The view is shaped by prejudice and assumptions. We stopped funding Social Research almost completely back in the early Reagan days, and are just now recognizing that we need to put some of our money into this area of study for the benefit of our nation. We can't develop any policy without a proper insight and proof of the causes and obstacles that exist in the goal of 'helping' those who truly need help. Throwing money at anything is not the solution, but just because the money alone doesn't work, we assume that it is the individual who is broken and nothing else in our own system. Also much of what is set aside in the annual budget for Welfare programs go into the administrative end. We have built a 'poverty industry' that created jobs, a lot of jobs, that actually pay pretty well being government positions, and we give out independent contracts to other service providers all to 'give money to people'. Very little of those budget dollars actually represent what is given to the individual or family, most of it is eaten up by the inefficient beaurocracy. Then we have situations like I wrote about in another thread, where we have criminals who take advantage of those who are in abject poverty and need cash but only have food stamps running illegal food stamp cashing rings at a cost of 40-50 cents on the dollar which is funneled out of the nation, millions of dollars worth, to go into the pocket of one now wealthy individual and his family. That represents another weakness in the system.

Sure we know that addiction leads to poverty and can be a viscious cycle, where the individuals use every penny they can get their hands on for their addiction, but what do we know about healing addiction? We just throw money at the poor and then get angry when money alone doesn't cure the whole picture.

And as I also stated, we then blame the whole population that lives in poverty for the 'hardest case' situation which might be generational poverty and its long term effects or serious drug abuse which can lead to criminal activity.

On the flip side, those who Honu describes as 'financially inconvenienced', I would like to know who they are. There are many who may have a life situation turn in a negative way due to nothing they have done or not done who 'slide' into poverty and back out again. What I have discovered is that when this happens we actually make it harder for them, not easier, when we don't truly address their needs and they can end up in chronic poverty due to a series of events and not due to anything they have failed at.

Our current credit system is also a contributing factor. Before you get all up in arms and say "they shouldn't even use credit" this is not what I am talking about. In the past 20 years our nation has allowed our credit industry to regulate how we do everything in life, even the necessities. Do you want car insurance? Yes...ok well your credit score is high. Well, yeah, I was laid off and went through some tough times and my score took a hit. Ok, well you will pay 20 percent more for your insurance then.

Don't have money? We will charge you MORE than someone who is doing good, on everything.

It became 10-20 percent more expensive for me to live when I hit poverty after my divorce than when we were living 'the American dream' with good credit. Add to that the fact that my income is reduced by half and as a single mother I MUST do all that is required to head a household in terms of energy that takes and you will understand why most of the poor in America are children.

The single parent, whether male or female, has a hard time doing it all just because they do not have enough time/energy in one day to do it all, and earning an income is part of that. Many women are still restricted as single parents on what they can do for work because of day care needs, they can only accept work in the 9-6 hour time frame, very few centers offer after hours care.

It is a very complex problem, poverty in America, because our society has become very complex in how it 'runs the show' economically.

The idea that we just need to spend money and this will fix the poverty and if it doesn't work, its the person's failure is part of the problem.

We have spent insane amounts of money on the war, which I think was also done with a policy and research, and yet when this fails we do not blame the soldiers participating. We blame the plan and the policy gets re-evaluated. But we do not do this for our Welfare System and when we reform it we take the approach of punishments and more controls over individual lives because the belief is that this is where the failure was.

But it isn't.

[Ceshune]

Nine Views of Homeless People From the Perspective of a Politician

1. There will soon be a convention in town so I need to try to find a way to hide the homeless people to protect my image.

2. The current local homeless radical was a schoolmate of mine and got better grades than me so I need to try to keep him homeless because he knows as much about me as I know about him, and if he stays homeless, then he will have no credibility.

3. I promised to remove homelessness during my campaign, but if I do, there won't be an excuse for spending money for overhead because the landlords of the homeless people contributed to my campaign and they are more important and influential than homeless people.

4. If I train case managers to end homelessness, the food missions will not survive because most of their income is from donated food they sell.

5. There is a need for homelessness because some people like to compare themselves to the have-nots and l like to remind homeless people of the status of the rich.

6. There is no guarantee in the Constitution everyone should have a place to live and food to eat.

7. I once helped a homeless person receive entitlements, and instead of expressing gratitude by making something of themselves, I got accused of being the cause of their problems. Why am I obligated to continue helping a person who does not express proper gratitude? Why am I obligated to be kind to a homeless person just because I once saved that person's life?

8. I can't rethink the premise some homeless people are unfairly diagnosed because if I am in error and some of them are treated unfairly, then this decision adversely reflects upon the medical profession and I may need their help someday.

9. If I help the homeless people, I may be painted with a homeless brush and people will think I am just working on some community project to pay off parking tickets.

[jaba]

TONS of money go into welfare programs everyday. So much is wasted and squandered it is sickening with too many of the financially inconvenienced sucking up the money that should go to the truly needy.What we need to do is stop the handouts and develop programs to get people off the federal tit.

I agree that not all people who are on welfare should be, welfare should be a temporary situation not a way of life. I would rather see a single parent on welfare for the first few years of a childs life rather than shoving it into a daycare program where anything can happen. As for the rest of the people on welfare that really shouldn't be, the government should over a period of time give them less and less money until they have no other choice but to look for work.

[lailalily]

Poverty is the worst form of violence
~Gandhi

[MagnaCarta]

We all know that in the United States their is a major downturn in the Real Estate Markets, which is often an indication of greater problems in the overall economy. I came across a couple of interesting articles in my email from bankrate.com.

The first discusses why this is not really even a 'buyers market', which is what would happen in a normal correction of an over inflated real estate market. http://www.bankrate.com/nltrack/news/reale...rtgage_20080724

The second discusses how even with a significant downturn in the average cost of real estate in the United States, most are still unable to afford this 'reduced price' market. http://www.bankrate.com/nltrack/news/reale...sp?prodtype=mtg

More signs of greater troubles in the underlying foundation which our economy is standing on which were also discussed in this thread: http://islamfactor.org/index.php?showtopic=1550&hl=banks

From the article:

Comparing housing costs in more than 200 metropolitan areas with the wages earned by workers in 60 occupations, the study found that homeownership is unaffordable for all of the five-fastest growing occupations -- registered nurses, retail salespeople, customer service representatives, food preparation workers and office clerks. Even registered nurses, who typically have high salaries, were unable to purchase a median-priced home in 108 of the markets.

Seems we have been brewing the perfect storm for decades and it isn't all about the oil...and that other corrections are long overdue, including the disparity between increased productivity and the lack of GAINS this has provided for workers in general. This of course is what creates much of the poverty we like to blame on other 'moral failings' of individuals, which for the most part is simply a myth. It is still sad that the working poor are often being stigmatized for being poor in spite of working as hard as the next person, many with further education to provide the skills needed to contribute to their occupations.

[MagnaCarta]

Just a few stats:

Welfare programs and the people who use them have a bad public image. Any attempts at welfare reform should include the dissemination of factual information to eliminate the misconceptions. This information should include the following facts: (1) only 60% of poverty stricken households receive welfare; (2) most government services and funds to households are for social security, Medicare and veterans' benefits; (3) welfare programs require applicants to demonstrate need through a means test; (4) most welfare benefits are services rather than cash; (5) the groups most likely to receive welfare are minorities and women with dependent children; (6) states with more generous welfare programs do not attract recipients from other states; (7) only a minority of recipients become long-term welfare families; (8) welfare programs do not contribute to the breakup of families; and (9) welfare does not pull many families above the poverty line. Current initiatives to reform the welfare system are focused on more uniform state eligibility rules, and incentives and training for jobs.

The idea that the single mom is poor because she is ignorant or uneducated is only prejudiced opinion. There are more college educated women who need assistance as a single parent than you would imagine. In the same manner that it can take TWO income earners in a home to make ends meet, even a single income earner with a college degree may not be able to earn enough income to be above the current poverty guidelines. The single mother has restraints on her that a married mother or even a single father without custody does not have. Time restraints. I suppose if you cloned her then she wouldn't need benefits. Then she could work those endless hours and not be neglecting her children at home, she would have someone to care for the house with her, the yard, do all the 'business' that it takes to run a household and never crash from burnout. It isn't laziness that keeps single women from being self sufficient. It isn't lack of education. Its not enough time and insufficient income to meet expenses even WITH a college degree that can make a woman seek financial assistance from welfare. Most women initially apply for MEDICAID for their children and are then filed as a family case which will be considered for other benefits.

[MagnaCarta]

I am back in the 'system' since my appendectomy. Since my bill was in excess of 35K (the separate bills kept rolling in after my post on the cost was done), and I am uninsured, the hospital automatically starts an application for Medicaid to cover it. My surgery was on July 1. I got the paper work about a week later. I have been 'in process' since then, 3 months. I sent more documentation than my husband needed for his immigration papers! If you think we just hand out money to 'people who don't deserve it' think again. They went over our bank accounts, our income returns, our assetts, everything, with a fine tooth comb. I was not applying for general assistance because my husband is not a permanent resident and can NOT receive any aid from welfare. I was simply applying to get my hospital bill covered but they processed my case for ALL other benefits, they don't just do it for one benefit. So even though I am not requesting other forms of aid, such as foodstamps (and I would qualify for them) I was put through as one who was applying for them because I need Medicaid.

I will receive my letter in 7-10 days, so they said about 2 days ago.

Our annual income is 20K, just FYI, for a household of four. Our rent, the cheapest you will find within a 100 miles of chicago, is 750 a mo on a small 2 br 1 bath apartment. We do NOT get government assistance. Do the math. Not everyone who is in need is not leaching off the system.

This post has been edited by MagnaCarta: Sep 12 2008, 09:20 AM

[LadyGarnetRose]

I am back in the 'system' since my appendectomy. Since my bill was in excess of 35K (the separate bills kept rolling in after my post on the cost was done), and I am uninsured, the hospital automatically starts an application for Medicaid to cover it. My surgery was on July 1. I got the paper work about a week later. I have been 'in process' since then, 3 months. I sent more documentation than my husband needed for his immigration papers! If you think we just hand out money to 'people who don't deserve it' think again. They went over our bank accounts, our income returns, our assetts, everything, with a fine tooth comb. I was not applying for general assistance because my husband is not a permanent resident and can NOT receive any aid from welfare. I was simply applying to get my hospital bill covered but they processed my case for ALL other benefits, they don't just do it for one benefit. So even though I am not requesting other forms of aid, such as foodstamps (and I would qualify for them) I was put through as one who was applying for them because I need Medicaid.

I will receive my letter in 7-10 days, so they said about 2 days ago.

Our annual income is 20K, just FYI, for a household of four. Our rent, the cheapest you will find within a 100 miles of chicago, is 750 a mo on a small 2 br 1 bath apartment. We do NOT get government assistance. Do the math. Not everyone who is in need is not leaching off the system.

Only 35k?


Yeah I really mean that. I have medical expenses that delve into the hundreds of thousands.


I worked, from the age of 14 till I was 29. From the age of 14 to 20 I got back what I paid in taxes... When I turned 20 I got a job that paid 50k a year. I got my degree and when I was 23 made 75K a year and got raises upon that.

When I turned 31 I was diagnosed with Lupus with R/A I'm not supposed to work a full week, but I do because the bills have to be paid. I HURT every moment I'm alive.

I have chronic pluresy (that started 7 years ago almost to the day, inhaled a bunch of *** and now I'm in worse shape than I've ever been in my life), and it just hurts to get out of bed.

Yet, I do not qualify for Disability. It is only my will that keeps me going. I refuse to crumble.

Yet.

I see perfectly abled bodied people get a check in the mail every month.

[MagnaCarta]

Only 35k?


Yeah I really mean that. I have medical expenses that delve into the hundreds of thousands.


I worked, from the age of 14 till I was 29. From the age of 14 to 20 I got back what I paid in taxes... When I turned 20 I got a job that paid 50k a year. I got my degree and when I was 23 made 75K a year and got raises upon that.

When I turned 31 I was diagnosed with Lupus with R/A I'm not supposed to work a full week, but I do because the bills have to be paid. I HURT every moment I'm alive.

I have chronic pluresy (that started 7 years ago almost to the day, inhaled a bunch of *** and now I'm in worse shape than I've ever been in my life), and it just hurts to get out of bed.

Yet, I do not qualify for Disability. It is only my will that keeps me going. I refuse to crumble.

Yet.

I see perfectly abled bodied people get a check in the mail every month.

How in the world are you not qualifying for Disability? That really irks the heck out of me!

[LadyGarnetRose]

How in the world are you not qualifying for Disability? That really irks the heck out of me!

I don't

That's what the Government tells me.

I never got financial aid for school.

I never got a dime out of the US Government yet I have paid my taxes without fault since I started working.

[Coexist]

I see perfectly abled bodied people get a check in the mail every month.

Sickening, isn't it? I work with people who make more than I do, have less dependents, and still receive a check and/or free rent from the gov. The apartments I live in, where I give one paycheck every month, I recently discovered was a section 8 apartment complex. So while I'm handing over one of my paychecks every month to the place, there are many others here, young, healthy, working just like I am, who do not pay their rent.

I have 6 dependents who depend on my small income. I work when I'm sick, I've worked injured, I can't afford to stay home any more than absolutely necessary. But these people who receive such tremendous govt assistance (who I work with and know personally) call out from work often. Their jobs are for show, so that the govt thinks they're trying.

[LadyGarnetRose]

Sickening, isn't it? I work with people who make more than I do, have less dependents, and still receive a check and/or free rent from the gov. The apartments I live in, where I give one paycheck every month, I recently discovered was a section 8 apartment complex. So while I'm handing over one of my paychecks every month to the place, there are many others here, young, healthy, working just like I am, who do not pay their rent.

I have 6 dependents who depend on my small income. I work when I'm sick, I've worked injured, I can't afford to stay home any more than absolutely necessary. But these people who receive such tremendous govt assistance (who I work with and know personally) call out from work often. Their jobs are for show, so that the govt thinks they're trying.

It's worse than just sickening.

I am dieing quicker than I could be. I have a doctor that thinks I won't see my 40th if I keep up my current schedule.

I want to live more than 5 more years.

But our bills as they are...

Have to be paid.