Jews And Arabs Options

[Jim]

Both from the line of Shem (semites), Grand children of Abraham and sons of Ishmael and Isaac, I realized that in many cities I have been in around the USA they can live somewhat peacefully.

Although the media plays up to religious overtones in the crisis in the ME, I dont see problems between the two faiths. Also note that not all Arabs are Muslims (some are Jews and Christians). But I am talking about Jews and Muslims now.

Do you?

[Bloc]

I agree here. In the past, there was far more collaboration between Jews and Muslims, especially compared to relations between Jews and Christians or Muslims and Christians. The flourishing of Judaism in Al-Andalus (Islamic Spain) is often heralded as a Golden Age for Jewish culture. This was also the context in which Maimonides debuted, a great Jewish theologian, philosopher and legal scholar. Many of his works were published in Arabic and he was well integrated in the society.



It was very common for the two groups to work together in their campaigns. The following image shows many Jewish legions with the predominantly Muslim army. (Look closely at some of the flags carried, you'll see stars of David on some.) It fills me with great hope about the prospects for the future.

Battle of Higueruela

The way I see it, Muslims and Jews can (and have in the past) formed a completely complimentary relationship. Consider the following:

1. Both groups believe in the Oneness of God.
2. Practice of the Jewish religion is not claimed to be the only path to salvation, non-Jews can be righteous by following the 7 Noahide Laws.
3. There is little dispute about whether or not Muslims qualify under the Noahide laws (this is much less clear with Christians).
4. Judaism does not seek the conversion of others to this religion.
5. Muslims believe that Jews, as people of the book, have every right to continue the practice of their religion as they see fit, can not be compelled in any way to become Muslims, and need not be Muslims to succeed in this life and the next life.
6. Both are the targets of Christian prostilization attempts and at times throughout history, violent reprisals because of their different conceptions of God.

The conclusion?

Islam allows for the Jewish people to grow and flourish as a community, while providing a religion and method of complying to the 7 Noahide Laws for the gentiles of the world.

I sincerely think that were it not for the Israel-Palestine conflict, the Jewish-Muslim relationship would be far better than it is today. Let's not forget that there were over 850,000 jews in countries throughout the Arab world and the majority of them identified themselves ethnically as Arabs, not as Jews (this concept in its present form hasn't really existed until recently).

I hope we can do what we can to address this painful conflict and improve the relationship between our two communities.

This post has been edited by Bloc: Mar 21 2008, 08:28 AM

[Jim]

Mashallah, thanks for that info Bloc!

That was a great post.

[redcake]

I sincerely think that were it not for the Israel-Palestine conflict, the Jewish-Muslim relationship would be far better than it is today. Let's not forget that there were over 850,000 jews in countries throughout the Arab world and the majority of them identified themselves ethnically as Arabs, not as Jews (this concept in its present form hasn't really existed until recently).

What a horrible example when we consider the curent state of those communities. You're also incredibly mistaken to think they did not identify as Jews. They lived firmly as people of a dual-nationality who retained their cultures, without the drastic assimilation fears found in Europe and elsewhere. Even if that were so, it would only undermind your point that Jews and Muslims once lived in harmony.

[Bloc]

I didn't mean to suggest that they didn't see themselves as Jews (rather not the way Jews see themselves today), but rather that they did see themselves as Arabs. I can see from my post why you are critical of my wording, so I certainly concede on that point. I agree that they had a dual identity, but it can't be escaped that the language generally used among them was Arabic and that a significant number were just as swept up in the secular pan-Arab movement as Arabs of Muslim and Christian backgrounds.

That quote though doesn't address my other points, which were at the core of my post. Don't you think that observant Muslims and Jews form a more cohesive and sustainable community than Christians with either of those two faiths?

This post has been edited by Bloc: Mar 22 2008, 07:47 AM

[Jim]

I didn't mean to suggest that they didn't see themselves as Jews (rather not the way Jews see themselves today), but rather that they did see themselves as Arabs. .... but it can't be escaped that the language generally used among them was Arabic and that a significant number were just as swept up in the secular pan-Arab movement as Arabs of Muslim and Christian backgrounds.

Interesting that you meantion the Arabic language Bloc. Hebrew completely ceased to exist as a spoken language for 1900 years (since the Roman sack of Jerusalem in 70AD). It wasn't until the events leading to the creation of the Israeli state that it was again revived as a spoken language.

So, obviously, the Jews in the transjordan were very much Arab in many ways.

[redcake]

I think anyone with a desire to be tolerant can coexist and that's the foundation of a sustainable community... I don't think Muslims are preferential neighbors compared to Christians Druze, or Buddhists, no.

the language generally used among them was Arabic and that a significant number were just as swept up in the secular pan-Arab movement as Arabs of Muslim and Christian backgrounds.

Jews were never pan-Arabists. Can you elaborate on instances where they supported pan-Arab nationalism as their own? They supported statehood until it became clear that meant a decline in their personal freedoms.

[redcake]

Hebrew completely ceased to exist as a spoken language for 1900 years (since the Roman sack of Jerusalem in 70AD). It wasn't until the events leading to the creation of the Israeli state that it was again revived as a spoken language.

What languages do you think Jews used when reading the Torah during the 1800's?

[Bloc]

Jews were never pan-Arabists. Can you elaborate on instances where they supported pan-Arab nationalism as their own? They supported statehood until it became clear that meant a decline in their personal freedoms.

Let's clarify something. Are you referring to both secular Arabs with a Jewish background and religiously observant Jewish Arabs or just those that closely followed the Torah and strongly identified with their religion?

Pan-Arabism had little to do with religion, and this explained the close cooperation by people of many religious backgrounds (various Muslim sects, Christian sects, etc.) If it had taken on any religious (primarily Islamic) tone, it would have for instance called for the unification of all Muslim lands, which would have alienated these other groups.

[redcake]

Let's clarify something. Are you referring to both secular Arabs with a Jewish background and religiously observant Jewish Arabs or just those that closely followed the Torah and strongly identified with their religion?

No difference in this case. Sephardic Jews would never ever think of themselves as Arabs first, if they thought of themselves as Arabs at all. What "secular Arabs with a Jewish background" ? You're either Jewish or you're not, and even non-practicing Jews differentiated themselves drastically from regular Arabs. Would you ask for such clarification from a Kurd? Of course not.

Look, Jews from Arab lands have their own dialect of Arabic, their own style of food, their own styles of music, their own styles of dress, dance, etc. They shared a lot with non-Jews, but their culture had many important distinctions.

Pan-Arabism had little to do with religion, and this explained the close cooperation by people of many religious backgrounds (various Muslim sects, Christian sects, etc.)

Not true. Pan Arabism is just the Marxist version of Pan Islamism... but Jews, and Kurds , and Druze have never been a part of such a movement on equal terms, ever. Christians? Well, the PLFP and other organizations have had prominent Christian members, but their religious background is incidental since they haven't served the interest of their Christian brothers and sisters. Pan Arabism more often then not, has been a separatist movement.

If it had taken on any religious (primarily Islamic) tone, it would have for instance called for the unification of all Muslim lands, which would have alienated these other groups.

It did, and has. Heard of the Arab League?

[Jim]

What languages do you think Jews used when reading the Torah during the 1800's?

Reciting the Torah and speaking the language as a common spoken language are two different things. I know many Muslims who recite arabic Quran and dont know a lick of arabic as a common language. Many arabs recite Arabic quran and cant speak quranic arabic.

Likewise, many preists recite the bible in latin but cant speak latin as a common language.

My point is that Hebrew ceased to be spoken as a common language for 1900 years. And this is true.

[NoachideJoe]

OK, right here is where I begin my learning process. I have heard/read, through different websites and from different individuals about the conflict between Jews and Muslims, and have come across a couple of things directly related to what you've written. I will post my questions in-line:

...The way I see it, Muslims and Jews can (and have in the past) formed a completely complimentary relationship. Consider the following:

1. Both groups believe in the Oneness of God...

Isn't it true, though, that one of the prayers or "chants" of Islam makes the claim that "My G-d is better than your G-d?" Unfortunately, I can not find the source that I saw for this information, and so am asking about it's validity.

...5. Muslims believe that Jews, as people of the book, have every right to continue the practice of their religion as they see fit, can not be compelled in any way to become Muslims, and need not be Muslims to succeed in this life and the next life...

Then why does the statement "...we (Muslims) will drive them (Jews) into the sea..." or something along those lines, continue to come up in the Arab nations of the Middle East? Is this a commonly held belief? Or can it be attributed ONLY to radical Islam?

Let me reiterate that these questions are in no way meant to offend. Rather, as I initially stated, their origin is in my desire to learn.

Thank you for your insight and responses,
Joe

[Bloc]

Isn't it true, though, that one of the prayers or "chants" of Islam makes the claim that "My G-d is better than your G-d?" Unfortunately, I can not find the source that I saw for this information, and so am asking about it's validity.

I've never heard anything even remotely like that and I'm worried that you've been grossly misinformed. Muslims believe that Islam is a continuation of the same religion that Jews practiced, and they consider Jesus Christ as a prophet (in step with the Christians), while not divine, or God in any way.

For a Muslim to claim that Jews and their own community worship different Gods is at best ignorance and at worst utter blasphemy. In fact, you may or may not have heard this before, but Arab speaking Christians and Jews refer to God as Allah. This does not make them any less true to their respective faiths and supports the argument that we are all discussing one God.

It's good that you're actively trying to seek out accurate information!

Then why does the statement "...we (Muslims) will drive them (Jews) into the sea..." or something along those lines, continue to come up in the Arab nations of the Middle East? Is this a commonly held belief? Or can it be attributed ONLY to radical Islam?

Muslim leaders or other people who make such statements aren't generally referring to Jews as a religious community. Instead, they're talking about the Jews who have settled in Palestine/Israel, have occupied the Palestinian territories and East Jerusalem (Islam's third holiest site) and continue to act unjustly with the Palestinians within their territories.

This sense of frustrtation isn't directed at Jews, but more accurately, Zionists (people who want to establish a Jewish homeland where the Palestinians live, with little or no regard for the previous inhabitants).

Let me reiterate that these questions are in no way meant to offend. Rather, as I initially stated, their origin is in my desire to learn.

Joe, you'll find that the Muslims here (and probably people of all faiths,) will show patience and be eager to answer sincere questions. Don't be shy about asking and so long as you do so in a respectful way, I can't imagine people getting offended.

If you have any follow up questions, please feel free to probe further.

[NoachideJoe]

Shalom Bloc,
Thank you for your responses...they do help to clear some things up for me.

Joe

[redcake]

Reciting the Torah and speaking the language as a common spoken language are two different things.

Okay you're right, conversational Hebrew was reintroduced with Zionism. The idea was that Jews already had this common bond of a language, and that would assist with melting Yemenites with Russians and all the rest. That said, Hebrew was still a common language used every day. Remember, the Torah contains the five books of Moses, we're not talking strange prose, or collections of Psalms. Yes, today people tend to read scriptures in a mumble and don't know what they're repeating, but that wasn't the case in the past.

[Jim]

Okay you're right, conversational Hebrew was reintroduced with Zionism. The idea was that Jews already had this common bond of a language, and that would assist with melting Yemenites with Russians and all the rest. That said, Hebrew was still a common language used every day. Remember, the Torah contains the five books of Moses, we're not talking strange prose, or collections of Psalms. Yes, today people tend to read scriptures in a mumble and don't know what they're repeating, but that wasn't the case in the past.

I understand redcake Thank you:)

[silkworm]

It is a historical fact that whenever teh Jewish people were persecuted by Christians mob, popes or governments they always seeks refuge in Moslems lands and Moslems welcomed them with open arms. Except for one period when Almoverahids (Berbers) attacked and displaced Jews, Moslems were totally realxed with Jews and no friction ever developed.

[redcake]

Not exactly, but once upon a time there was Islamic rule that extended great protections and freedoms to Jews.
That has no bearing on the current climate unless Islamic leadership plans to reform their views and return to the says when they could extend the same protections and freedoms.


In other words.... Muslims can say "remember when we got along, and Muslims were really good to you?" but it doesn't soften the blow of a genocidal movement against Jews or Israel.

[silkworm]

Redcake, Arab Moslems, Christians and Jews were living in Palestine without having any problem before the Eastern Jewry started their Aliyahs to Ha'Eretz Yisrael.
People like Jabotinskies, Bierbaums, Eliyahu Golombs were the first to teach their people to use fire arms, these people used "Terrorism" against British and after that they fell upon Arab Moslems.

I think a book called BLOOD IN ZION by SAUL ZADKA might provide some help to enlighten you.

[redcake]

Safed in 1660, and 1799
Hebron in 1775
Jerusalem & Hebron in 1834
The Plunder of Safed 1834
The Damascus Affair 1840
Petah Tikvah 1886
Geddera 1888
Yesud Ha am Alah 1890
Rehovot 1892, 1893, 1899
Jaffa 1908
sajera 1909
Grand Mufti Al-Husayni calls for expulsion, and violence 1899
Jerusalem riots 1911

This post has been edited by redcake: Mar 27 2008, 03:46 AM